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Author Topic: What would you change?  (Read 1619 times)
BjornBee
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« on: January 24, 2013, 01:01:41 PM »

I keep reading about some suggesting that society has degraded to a point seemingly that we are on the verge of social collapse.

So if you had the power, what would you change back to a time of 20-40-60 years ago?

I keep throwing around points that some make in my mind. Like divorce is so much higher. Should we go back to a time when we shamed divorce and expected a women to stay in an abusive marriage? Less people go to church. Should we force people to attend church?

I never went to a school that actually had prayer. I do remember having a moment of silence where I suppose some actually prayed. I was too busy checking out the girls to notice. While I do not expect my school to give my kids religion in school, I suppose many do. Or at least they say without that morning prayer, society is doomed in some manner.

I suppose some would want to be ignorant like school girls were years ago when Wham, Queen, and the Village People were not out. heck my parents would not even acknowledge in open of knowing that Liberace was gay. It was just not spoken about at home.

Should we take away violent games? Did society become more degraded when blacks, especially athletes started boinking white girls?

I look at government in two things they do that control me. They can increase my taxes, and have the ability to pass laws and place more restrictions on my personal freedoms.

But in an odd way, those claiming that society has degraded, really can only come up with solutions based on controlling others and placing limitations on what others can do.

It is easy to stand around and claim that society has degraded. But I look around, and I like my school my kids attend. The education is great. I don't think priests get away with as many childhood rapes. I do not think a women should stay in an abusive marriage, and I do not look down upon someone getting a divorce. I don't think crime is any higher today. Kids today are more sophisticated. People are more traveled, we have more conveniences. I could go on and on. And I just can't see how anyone can stand and say that society has degraded, and that somehow we should go back to the good old days. What good old days?

Anyways, can someone tell me what they would want changed that would make society a better place of years past? What has degraded society and what would you do to make it better if you had the power to snap your fingers and make it happen.

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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2013, 01:40:50 PM »

Its all in point of view I guess. When I was young I always seemed to hang with large groups. If someone said something stupid, being cruel to a friend of ours who was homosexual, there was always another who would tell  that someone, to shut the f up! Where we  better at policing ourselves then? I don't know. For me its the " in your face " crap we have to deal with on a daily basis.  Not just in the homosexual arena.

Can a man have a private conversation with his doctor to find a way to cure his ills, or must I go into cardiac arrest every time a five year old ask me what a four hour erection is?
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2013, 03:45:39 PM »

How far back do you want to go?  You want the earth to be flat and the sun to revolve around it?  The "good old days" will always be behind you.  Change has always be frightning. 

Fortunately, young people adapt more readily than old people.  It is their world now and yours is behind you.  I think that's called getting old.

People have complained about the degregation of society since ancient times. You can look it up, they couldn't.
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2013, 04:09:36 PM »

the things you list aren't really what made society more civil, but they were a part of a more civil society.  you had more personal responsability and more discipline then. self discipline, but from those around you if you didn't manage it yourself.   

if there were one thing that would make a difference to society as a whole, i think it would be to remove the government as a fall back position.  you have almost 1/2 the population getting some kind of government money.  some legit, much not.  you have over 50% of the households getting some government money. 

never mind that it's not economically sustainable, but it's not possible for society to sustain this kind of dependency.  where we used to look to community, and yes, even church, for help in rough times, we now turn to the government.  where we used to adjust out lifestyle or bust our backsides when we lost a job, we now sit home and collect unemployment and trust the government to make sure the bank doesn't take our home.

there are things in society that need to be changes from time to time.  slavery was wrong.  people should not be persecuted for who they sleep with.  women should be able to vote.
because some things need to change, it does not follow that all change is good. 

Sundog is correct about young people being willing to "adapt"....that's why these universities are able to churn out leftists at a fairly alarming rate.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2013, 07:41:10 AM »

I think it all comes down to a lack of personal responsibility.

Marriage and the core family

Many marriages today are rushed into and the people making the commitments have no idea what the true vows they recite mean. Most replace the better or for worse rich or poor, with cute little sayings of how much they love each other at the time or where they met. When things become tough, there is no personal responsibility they just cut and run. No honor of the commitment they made to each other. Abuse and infidelity aside there are very few reasons for divorce. Some people get married with no fear of divorce. Divorce should be feared

Personal responsibility with the family also extends to the raising of children. In Louisiana 74% of minorities and 23% of white kids are born to single parent households. Those kids are raised with no father figure in their lives to assist with the teaching of right and wrong.  One of the leading reasons for this is government assistance. With a father in the house the amount of government assistance is reduced. I had a lady in my office get married and she never changed her name. Finally I asked her why she replied it would cut the amount I collect from the government. So her husband came and went as she was raising her 5 grandkids. Yes 5 grand kids by two daughters. I wonder where the father of the grand children where? Personal responsibility, my mother always told me it takes two to tango and I better be ready when a third pops out and is hungry. I took those words to heart but 74% and 23% in my Louisiana do not. Most of those believe the government will provide that safety blanket, and due to that thought process, we now  have third,  fourth and believe it or not fifth generation welfare recipients.

Unemployment. I hear stories of people on unemployment for 18 months to two years. How is that possible? I lost a job once and was back at my college job cutting grass that afternoon. I cut grass for a month till I was able to find a position comparable to the one I lost. I see the unemployment numbers (which by the way are artificially low) but every day I see signs of help wanted. My company keeps ads in the local paper but we cannot fill all positions. Reason for that I guess is they are entry level and it would be beneath people to take a step back in their career. The lack of personal responsibility says I would rather sit at home and earn a little from the government then swallow my pride and get my hands dirty till something better comes along

 To repeat Kathy in an earlier post a good percent of people today believe it is the governments place to take care of them or provide them a safety net.  I always thought it was my responsibility to care for myself my family and my commitments.

So to answer your question Bjorn I think what I wish would revert back to the 20, 30, 40, or 60 years ago is personal responsibility for one’s s elf. Next I would like to replace this political correctness crap

Keith
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2013, 03:31:16 PM »

I think it all went south when the term 'boinking' was coined. Lol
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2013, 04:44:19 PM »

    I agree with Keith. A hug part of all this is the "political correctness crap!" If you think about the way our society is being ruined, the ruin is accomplished by forcing those who oppose an agenda, to keep their mouths shut. As in, a relatively new word, "homophobe" was developed to ridicule anyone who opposed the homosexual agenda.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »

    I agree with Keith. A hug part of all this is the "political correctness crap!" If you think about the way our society is being ruined, the ruin is accomplished by forcing those who oppose an agenda, to keep their mouths shut. As in, a relatively new word, "homophobe" was developed to ridicule anyone who opposed the homosexual agenda.

Can you explain what the homosexual agenda is?

Thank you.

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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2013, 06:24:11 PM »

it is that their sexual preference be accepted in all things...and even protected as a civil rights issue.  and it's odd, because it is really all about sex.  they don't want to win the argument, they want to force it. 


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2013, 06:40:00 PM »

it is that their sexual preference be accepted in all things...and even protected as a civil rights issue.  and it's odd, because it is really all about sex.  they don't want to win the argument, they want to force it. 




I am assuming you are against the "agenda". With that said....

Am I correct, that you would want it as.....their sexual preference be NOT accepted, they not be protected under any civil rights, and....I'm not sure on this one...that homosexuality is just about sex and nothing more, and you want it defined as such?

Not sure what the argument is? What argument? That they be accepted? or that they should be protected by civil rights? Are they at fault for demanding acceptance or being protected? not sure if you are saying they are forcing an argument, or something else.

I started this thread not to have some make blanket statements. But to identify issues and particular circumstances that folks say are denigrating our society. It is easy to say "gays". But I am more about knowing what you see as the problem with "gays" and what would you say is the corrective action if you had the power to make any changes you would want.

So I ask besides the questions above, what exactly you would do to correct these issues and problems you have with gays, or their agenda.

What would you do if you had ultimate power to change anything you would want?
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 06:45:44 PM »

consider something and try to do it without the knee jerk reaction:  you don't like relitgion and you don't like "moral" issues being shoved down your throat.  you equate the two.  you are wrong, but for the purposes of this issue, it doesn't matter.  anything that might have the whiff of "moral" should be kept to ourselves.

20 years ago, we would not have been talking about gay marriage.  not that the issue was not out there, but it was way out there.  here is the new issue.  it is now where the gay issues were 20 years ago.

http://gawker.com/5941037/born-this-way-sympathy-and-science-for-those-who--want-to-have-sex-with-children

the latest is that it's not harmful to children.  love is always good as long as it's not forced.  pedophiles are born this way so shouldn't be punished.  you might think this is coming from NAMBLA, but it's not.  it's coming from the same medical and psych bodies who eventually caved and said homosexuality is just fine, normal, does not harm....and they are born that way.

i am not arguing their findings, or their sincerity, although they eventually came to these "new" conclusions after much pressure.  what i am asking is if there is no morality but whatever you decide it is in your own head....no social norms, no religious mandates, no laws....then how will you justify blocking pedophiles...or any other thing that people take into their heads that they want to do.

this is no more out in the weeds than the conversation about homosexuality was 20 years ago.  it's worth thinking about.  if the family is the core foundation to our society, and it has been, what happens when you redefine your basic structure?  what happens when you remove the rules that have governed your society?

we need to think about these things...and not just about who we are sleeping with, because change is coming at us quickly.  we do have the history of other societies and what has and has not happened to them with change.  we do know that the current power base wants a kind of change that they can't have absent that nasty morality that you detest.  we know that if a society can't self govern because it has thrown out it's societal rules, it must be ruled or dissolve.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2013, 06:48:28 PM »

the problem is not with gays.  the problem is with forcing a society to accept what they do when that society is not prepared yet to do that.  this is destructive to them and to society.

leave it to the states.  it's coming along.  stop running to court every time you don't get your own way.  stop marching down the street in disgusting outfits that cause mothers to hide their children.  if you want this to be  normal, act normal.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2013, 06:50:00 PM »

with all the things going on in this country, i'm kind of interested in why you choose this as your cause?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2013, 07:14:12 PM »

with all the things going on in this country, i'm kind of interested in why you choose this as your cause?

Don't go running off yet kathy.

You did not answer the question.

The gay agenda was identified as a problem. You now seemingly have an issue with the court system. So I guess gays should not have the right to the court system.

And I guess any parades with gays should be banned.

And who decides what normal is?


I did not make this an issue. It is not my cause. I asked after hearing about how our society is being denigrated, what exactly the issues are. I hear things like "The society went to heck after they took prayer out of school. And "That marriage is a problem". Keith is already on record as saying he wants to make divorce much harder. I guess some laws or something else will be seen as advantageous if two people are forced to live forever together.

I'm trying to take the discussion beyond pure rhetoric. And campaign slogan comments. It is easy to say "personal responsibility" as we point fingers at others. I'm intersted in how others think we can correct this problem.

The question is easy. If society is being denigrated, what specific issues are at play, and what would you do to correct the problem if you could snap your fingers and make it happen?

So far on the gay issue, it looks like we have:

1) Take away gays civil rights
2) Deny them the court system
3) Keep them from public gathering, and out of parades.

Don't worry, I will be asking about measures to ensure folks stay married, and what mandatory laws should be passed to make more folks attend church. That is one thing always pointed out as a reason for the denigration of society.

But one subject at a time.

Again, what would you do to stop the denigration of society that gays have forced upon you, your family and society?

We have identified the problem. Now how about some solutions?
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2013, 07:27:43 PM »

Quote
The gay agenda was identified as a problem. You now seemingly have an issue with the court system. So I guess gays should not have the right to the court system.

not a specific problem to me.  i have no problem with the court system or using it.  i think that if the agenda is pushed in the courts rather than accepted by the people, gays will regret it.  do try not to distort what i say or put words in my mouth.  it does not add to the conversation.

Quote
And I guess any parades with gays should be banned.

again, do not put words in my mouth.  i don't like that crap. i don't like it when we have naked biker day either.  i don't think it does their cause any good and i don't know any gays who think that it's helpful either...and yes, i know gay people!

Quote
And who decides what normal is?

all societies define their norms.  ours has and has several different processes for challenging those norms.  it's worked pretty well so far.  we have been able to self correct when we needed to.  the one exception would be abortion and that has remained a major wedge issue because of the way it was decided.

Quote
I guess some laws or something else will be seen as advantageous if two people are forced to live forever together.

wow.  how young are you?  it used to be much harder to get a divorce than it is now.  there are also a number of studies that say absent violence, staying together for the sake of the kids is a good thing.  we might go back just a bit and make it a little harder to split up...or at least have it take more time.  might make people take more care before they get married in the first place.

Quote
So far on the gay issue, it looks like we have:

1) Take away gays civil rights
2) Deny them the court system
3) Keep them from public gathering, and out of parades.

and i said any of that where?  i would not let it become a civil rights issue.  i'm not sure we want who we sleep with becoming a civil rights issue.  that can go wrong in a lot of ways.

Quote
We have identified the problem. Now how about some solutions?

no, you have latched on to one thing and want to make sure the conversation goes in that direction.  you seem to have developed a fixation on the gay issue.  i have explained my position as well as i can, so i'm done with your game. 









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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2013, 08:20:18 PM »

I'm sorry kathy.

My questions are easy. What do you see as denigrating society?.

And if you had the power, what you you do to change it?

Someone mentioned the "gay agenda" and I asked what that was in regards to denigrating society.

You mentioned their use of the courts, parades, and civil rights as the "agenda"

So I stand corrected.

The answer is still there. What would you do to correct this denigration of society if you could snap your finger and make it happen?

I understand at this point, if you fail to answer this questions. many folks sound really stupid if they state what they think or really want.


But I'm willing to listen as you might sound more reasonable.

And no, "gay agenda" is not my fixation.

I actually wanted to see what other ideas keith might have in mind in making divorce much harder for couples.

Go ahead kathy. I am intersted in what you would want changed. If the gay agenda is denigrating our society, what can be done?

I do find your statement that "society is not ready", and perhaps that might be more applicable to you. I do not think society frowns upon gays, divorce, and many other things as they did years ago. Maybe that is why the president and left will always get credit for tearing down barriers such as women in combat, gay rights, immigration, and other things. while the right will just want to live in the past.

For the record, I detest the left. but I also do not have anything against anyone gay, anyone wanting a divorce, or a biker who wants to get naked and ride. But I feel that individual freedom is best to the individual and not to those standing pointing the fingers.

Come on kathy. Answer the question if you can. Someone said that the gay agenda was denigrating our society. You did not reply saying it was not, you defined the gay agenda, and gave examples of what you see as part of the problem.

So what would you do if given the chance?
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2013, 08:26:54 PM »

mine is answer #3.  if you are going to ask a question, have the courtesy to read the answers.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2013, 09:26:44 PM »

   I agree with Keith. A hug part of all this is the "political correctness crap!" If you think about the way our society is being ruined, the ruin is accomplished by forcing those who oppose an agenda, to keep their mouths shut. As in, a relatively new word, "homophobe" was developed to ridicule anyone who opposed the homosexual agenda.

Can you explain what the homosexual agenda is?

Thank you.

    My post gave "A" cause of the denigration, or "change" in our society. Not natural change, but manufactured change. Instead of telling me you agree or disagree with my point, you attempt to drag me into some kind of useless argument,debate or dogfight. I will take a pass.


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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2013, 09:45:22 PM »

mine is answer #3.  if you are going to ask a question, have the courtesy to read the answers.

Courtesy?

How rude to assume.

I did read #3.

Then I asked a question of fox which was #7, and you replied with #8. And the discussion went from there.

But I'll allow you an out without looking the fool.

With the morality police, it is easy to stand and point fingers. It is easy to just claim what others are doing, and complain. But when asked what one should do if given the power to make change, most of their answers involved turning back time, trampling on others rights, limiting freedom on other groups that most would never see themselves in.

It's like all complaining about the divorce rate. but every family I now has someone divorced. So is making marriage harder to do, or getting out of, really the answer? What freedom or rights is someone willing to impose to get lower divorce rates in some attempt of suggesting this will make our society any better?

And when someone suggests that gays are a reason that our society has been degraded, little beyond unreasonable expectations of shoving them back in the closet, taking away their rights, or other measures, are offered.


Honestly, on one hand the right complains of intrusive government, yet most of their solutions to societies problems (or the ones they think are problems) mostly comes down to placing limits on other people. I think as mentioned in another thread, most of society does not want "morality" police. And those with no real answers other than rhetoric and finger pointing will never get anywhere. Of course I think since most of society has moved on from homophobia days of old, those still living in the past will just be bitter.

Honestly, tell me how two guys getting married half way across the country, or even down the street, really affects you, other than your own reality you create in your own mind. Are you really upset about a once a year drag parade? Do you drag your kids there and then complain. I remember years ago when some would protest 7/11 selling porn mags. Funny how some make such an issue about how others live.

 
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2013, 10:10:27 PM »

   I agree with Keith. A hug part of all this is the "political correctness crap!" If you think about the way our society is being ruined, the ruin is accomplished by forcing those who oppose an agenda, to keep their mouths shut. As in, a relatively new word, "homophobe" was developed to ridicule anyone who opposed the homosexual agenda.

Can you explain what the homosexual agenda is?

Thank you.

    My post gave "A" cause of the denigration, or "change" in our society. Not natural change, but manufactured change. Instead of telling me you agree or disagree with my point, you attempt to drag me into some kind of useless argument,debate or dogfight. I will take a pass.



Thank you for taking a pass. When you start throwing around "natural change" and "Manufactured change", I agree, the conversation will go nowhere.

I tend to think society is the sum of the parts. Gays have been around since biblical times. Some act like it was just created, invented, and the "agenda" if presented right, will turn everyone gay including their kids, since some say it is a choice, a product of our corrupt society. Thank goodness there are more rational folks out there.

I only wish you could stay in the discussion and tell me what natural change is compared to manufactured change. Isn't change, just change? I suspect that this "natural change" is some attempt to explain something in your favor. But since I have never heard of these two terms used as such I guess I will never know.

Hey!    BOOOOOO!

Don't look now! I bet there is a gay closer to you than you really know. Better have that gaydar turned on. If you sleep too sound, you might just be turned to the other side.  lau
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