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Author Topic: What was that sound/ a broodless colony. NEED HELP!  (Read 9843 times)
Apis629
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« on: November 05, 2005, 09:27:06 PM »

I was checking on a small Russian colony of mine that I made from a split last month and they were oddly aggressive.  I opened the hive, which they were less than thrilled about and did my usuall inspection but, today I NEEDED gloves.  Anyways, I picked up a frame to examine it and the bees buzzed as usuall but, I heard a loud, high pitched sound that sounded like ,"Beeeeeeeeeeeeeee".  This was repeated a few times and I'm not sure wheather that was a queen piping or what.  Probably my biggest concern was that the colony is practically broodless.  I checked on them last Sunday and they had all stages of brood.  Now, the only brood is capped.  I searched the entire hive and couldn't find any eggs or the queen.  The population, however, has greatly increased even since I last opened them a week ago, so, I know they didn't swarm.  There weren't any queen cells either; supersedure or swarm.  THe center two frames were entirely full of capped brood, some emerging but, all the other frames had a few capped and very little honey or nectar.  There was a fair bit of pollen.  I'm wondering why some bee in the colony made that sound and what I can do to help them start rearing more brood?  I have started feeding them 2:1 sugar syrup (sugar:water).  I am in a panic.
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2005, 01:15:35 AM »

Quote from: Apis629
and what I can do to help them start rearing more brood?  I have started feeding them 2:1 sugar syrup (sugar:water).  I am in a panic.


When you cheched 7 days ago you shoud have some larvas yet if queen was there a week ago. But when you have no larva, queen have left 3 days ealier and took a  small group of bees with it OR they have raised a ne queen which have emerged 10 days ago and killed old queen.

If hey have no queen, they surely had raised queen cells.

MORE BROOD?

You need to give syrup that bees have some kind of food store . Do not give too much because it takes room from hive.

You do not tell, how many frames you have in hive.

You get more brood when you have one box full of bees. It is able to raise normally brood. If it is not full take a frame of emerging brood from bigger hive. One full brood frame gives 3 frames bees.

If you are greed, you may give larva frames to bigger hive to raise  and then you give emerging brood or empty frame to lay eggs.

If your queen have emerged 10 days ago it begins to lay egg very soon . It depends how you have mating  weathers.
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gsferg
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2005, 09:20:38 AM »

Quote from: Apis629
Probably my biggest concern was that the colony is practically broodless.  I checked on them last Sunday and they had all stages of brood.  Now, the only brood is capped.  I searched the entire hive and couldn't find any eggs or the queen.  The population, however, has greatly increased even since I last opened them a week ago, so, I know they didn't swarm.


Nathan, I don't know for beekeeping in Florida, but in much of the rest of the country about now, most hives are broodless. I haven't seen eggs in my hives for weeks. Also, when a queen stops laying she can slim down a lot and be harder to locate, especially if they're not marked. You didn't say if she was marked or not. I suspect also that when they've stopped laying, they tend to be more skittish- hiding in the corners of frames, not marching around the frames inspecting cells and preoccupied with laying like they usually are. I mean, if they're not laying eggs, what do queens do?

I think you're right, it's unlikely they swarmed this late and if they did I'd expect to find swarm cells. What do your other hives look like? Are they russian also? Do they have eggs and open brood?

I don't know what that noise was you heard, if it's even relevant. As for being a bit hotter than usual, that could be due to a number of things. Without open brood to care for, your bees might be inclined to fly more. Dunno. I've always found queenless hives to be unhappy, a bit more unsettled maybe, but not necessarily more aggressive. On the contrary, they're usually more lethargic- not the usual level of activity i.e., a lot of bees with nothing to do. The hives also tend to make an unhappy discontented "roaring" noise. Doesn't sound like that's what you heard though.

I can't say if your hive is queenless or not, but right off, the absence of eggs this time of year isn't to be unexpected. You might want to wait for a nice sunny day and check again, carefully, without smoke. She'll be on a frame with a lot of bees.

George-
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Apis629
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2005, 09:31:17 AM »

Sorry I wasn't to specific about the hive, It's a 10 frame langstroth and the outermost frame on each side is just foundation, one in from that has been drawn on one side, and all the rest are mostly fully drawn.  WHen I did the split I gave them 3 frames of completely drawn comb from my Italian colony.  Oh, and, I'm talking about deep frames.  Unfortunately, I accidentaly ordered an unmarked/unclipped queen so, no, she's not marked.  I'm going to check on my Italian colony to determine if the broodless state is due to the fact that Winter is comming.
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manowar422
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2005, 09:39:46 AM »

Here's a sound file of a queen piping

http://hemingwaysouthcarolina.com/sounds/queenpiping.wav

Is this what you heard?
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Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2005, 10:44:15 AM »

Quote from: Apis629
 I'm going to check on my Italian colony to determine if the broodless state is due to the fact that Winter is comming.


Florida weather now : http://weathercenter.com/

79 F = 26 C,  can't help what is happening somewhere else.

We are just wrinting much about hives which have had expectionally much brood this autumn.  Cant help with "most" data, if 30% have brood when they enter to winterball.

Your another hive has eggs and larvas, it means nothing to another hive.

Of course it is usefull to learn what happens in hives before winter, if you have winter at all n Florida rolleyes

You can check the queen: GIve to the hive  frame with eggs and young larvas. If it has no queen, after 3 days you see emercency cells.  If nothing happens, you have queen in the hive. It is good test.
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Apis629
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2005, 12:27:01 PM »

That sound of a queen piping is almost exacly what I heard but, there weren't any short calls only long ones lasting probably 2-3 seconds.
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newbee101
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2005, 02:07:32 PM »

I would guess you have a Queen then.
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Apis629
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2005, 02:20:23 PM »

A queen that hasn't started laying yet...queens only pipe before they start laying, right?
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Finsky
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2005, 02:30:12 PM »

Quote from: Apis629
That sound of a queen piping is almost exacly what I heard but, there weren't any short calls only long ones lasting probably 2-3 seconds.


Good to know.  In computer voice I suppose that queen was running along frames. Another style is that it walk slowly on combs and press it's thorax against combs and give longer sounds.

Seems to be that you have a queen. After one week you should have eggs there. But you should have more sugar stores in your hive. I do not know, what imeans "Florida winter". Does your bees get honey year around or pollen?

Chech egg laying after one week. Depends on weather when it have mating flight.
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Apis629
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2005, 05:15:01 PM »

Pollen is almost a year round thing but, nectar flows seem to decelerate and eventually stop from December to January or early February.
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Apis629
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2005, 06:43:52 PM »

UPDATE...

I just checked on the hive today and, there were eggs...tons of 'em!  There were even a few young larvae just bearly bigger than the eggs.  And yes, I'm sure it's a queen.  There were only one per cell.  I guess I'll just have to find out how these new bees are tempermentaly when they start to emerge in about 3 weeeks.
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Horns Pure Honey
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2005, 06:59:31 PM »

Sounds like a slow queen to me my friend. There is also some advice that could be given about new bee behavoir, at different times of the queens life she uses different drone sperm which in part gives you different timpered bees. You would think that the sperm of all drones would combine inside of her but in fact it layers itself giving you the different moods once again, just a little info. I have gone through this myself and it seamed to work out in the end so just hang in there, good luck! Cheesy
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Ryan Horn
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2005, 12:44:50 AM »

Very good!

So colony makes brood as much as nurser bees can nurse them. Do not wait any more. After 3 weeks new nurserer emerge again and hive is able to expand again. But do not give too much sugar. It just fills combs and restricts the brood area. If you have almost full food frames on boath sides that is enough.

Do not force them to make brood by giving ne room on the top. If it is necessary, give new room under the brood. So they are able to maintain brood temperature better. When it is honeyflow season, it is diffrent case.
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downunder
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2005, 06:14:29 AM »

Quote from: Horns Pure Honey
at different times of the queens life she uses different drone sperm which in part gives you different timpered bees. You would think that the sperm of all drones would combine inside of her but in fact it layers itself giving you the different moods Cheesy


I would love to see a reference on this?

Queens simply do not layer sperm, it is a common beekeeping misconception. I personally witness this on a weekly basis in my work with a bee genetics lab. A queen mates with approximately 10-16 drones. Queens cannot choose what sperm they use to fertilize an egg. At all times, all of the drone fathers progeny are represented in a colony and generally in equal proportions. The interactions between subfamilies within a colony is amazing. Particularly in the area of worker policing.

Drone sperm does clump and sometimes you can get a higher proportion of some subfamilies but not enough to describe the temper shifts you mention.
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Finsky
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2005, 06:56:57 AM »

Quote from: downunder

Queens simply do not layer sperm, it is a common beekeeping misconception. I personally witness this on a weekly basis in my work with a bee genetics lab. A queen mates with approximately 10-16 drones.



We have talked about this and some one knew that after latest knowledge sperm of different drones are in packages. Is that so or are the sperm mixed in queen's container?
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Horns Pure Honey
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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2005, 05:47:26 PM »

That was some info I got from the Illinois state lab, if they are wrong then so be it, no big deal to me, thanks for the correction if in fact I am wrong Smiley
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Ryan Horn
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2005, 05:54:52 PM »

As I said, if there is a reference for this I would love to read it. Sperm is mixed in the spermatheca.

We emerge progeny of colonies in incubators every week, these bees are then genotyped and you get full representation of all subfamilies when testing 200 bees.

We inseminate queens with 5 unrelated drones and get relatively the same distribution of subfamilies every time.

If a queen layered sperm why would they multiple mate? It's widely known that hives with a greater mix of subfamilies are better at task specialisation as they have a wide variety of genetic variability.

We have genotyped thousands of colonies and you get all subfamilies represented.
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Finsky
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2005, 09:55:45 PM »

Quote from: downunder

If a queen layered sperm why would they multiple mate? It's widely known that hives with a greater mix of subfamilies are better at task specialisation as they have a wide variety of genetic variability.
.


Thanks downunder! I appreciate your comments.
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Horns Pure Honey
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2005, 11:41:57 PM »

Thanks downunder, can't learn from your mistakes without answeres, thanks again, bye Cheesy
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Ryan Horn
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