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Author Topic: Women in combat?  (Read 5346 times)
luvin honey
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2013, 03:36:16 PM »

no they can't.  even if they do equally well, and are paid the same, the outcome will be different.  and that's assuming that they do equally well.  that never happens.  someone is always going to do better than another even in the same job.
Are you nitpicking over person to person to person differences? You can find those among the same race and gender. If you mean in a huge grouping, overall, I still believe men and women do the same. What the heck differences can you come up with that would explain otherwise? Honestly, I think many, many jobs women will do better, but I didn't want to get it ugly too fast here. Unless you're talking jobs that require brute strength, they'll both do fine. And even that is questionable. I'm far more able to do the physical job of growing vegetables on a larger scale than my husband is. He'd admit it in a heartbeat.
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any time my husband is asked to work more hours, i know exactly who didn't show up, needs time off, has sick kids......that's fine.  i want women to take care of their kids.  i'd like them to stay home and take care of their kids.  BUT if you are going be off work because of kid issues, don't expect to be paid for it.  you become one of those people who earns less because you made a choice.
Well, that's just the unfortunate fact of childrearing not being a very valued job in our society. While a woman wouldn't necessarily get paid for hours not worked (unless, like me, she worked nights instead or used earned time off), she shouldn't expect to never advance because of this. I'd rather see men and women share child duties more evenly, assuming both need to work for an income. DH and I flex around each other's jobs and the kids' needs all the time, so neither of us always needs to be the one off work for fieldtrips, illness, conferences, etc.
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kathyp
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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2013, 04:30:04 PM »

you want equality.  here it is:  if you take a job that has certain requirements and hours, and you can't meet those requirements or hours...for whatever reason, don't expect to  advance.  if you have chosen to take the job and have the children, one or the other will have to give.  i hope it will be the job for the sake of your kids.

your situation is nice for you. you and your husband can be flexible.  it is not where most working women find themselves or choose to be.

Quote
Are you nitpicking over person to person to person differences? You can find those among the same race and gender. If you mean in a huge grouping, overall, I still believe men and women do the same.

because this is the kind of stuff that "equality" is based on when they do their studies.  if you read the article, you see that when they start factoring the fact that women work differently and make different choices, there is not a pay disparity. 

men and women do not do the same.  that's not to say that they can't.  they just don't overall.  most of the time it's because of the choices they make.  that's not a bad thing.  it's just a fact.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2013, 08:10:19 PM »

I once had a job in a union shop. When I was assigned to a particular machine, I was told the maximum I was allowed to produce in one shift. The reason was so all the other operators could keep up.

That is what equal outcome means, and it is totally wrong. I quit the job because I would not give the employer 2/3rds of a day's work for a full day's pay. I could not sleep at night if I did so.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2013, 08:19:13 PM »

"" While a woman wouldn't necessarily get paid for hours not worked (unless, like me, she worked nights instead or used earned time off), she shouldn't expect to never advance because of this""

Really??

If you had two employees who worked equally well, but one was there 98% of the time and the other was there70% of the time, which would you advance to a more important, more necessary job?

No matter the gender, color, or the reason for the lack of attendance. Not a hard question to answer, if you are honest and not too set in your liberalism.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kingbee
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2013, 01:57:07 PM »

Kingbee, it helps if you preserve quotes instead of changing them. Here's what I actually said:

"The point is most people in this era don't consider it to be that groundbreaking to ask for equal opportunities for people, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.... Please tell me how "outcomes equal to those men enjoy" is a problem? Are you telling me women cannot work as smart or as hard as men? Perhaps that's your experience in life, but it certainly has not been mine.

I have never ONCE in my posts insinuated that women can not work as hard or as effectively as men can work. 
I suspect however that your hypersensitive on this issue is connected to a lingering doubt in your own mind about women working as hard or as well as men work.

However I have seen some eye opening things in an attempt to make women's OUTCOMES or rather women's INCOMES equal to a man's, individual efforts not withstanding.  At Decatur, Alabama on a Highway 31 bridge project at the South bank of the Tennessee River one of these things involved 4 man work crews who carried heavy wooden cribbing or bracing beams to get the heavy equipment in place. The FDT changed the contract to require women on the job.  I guess the engineer was afraid that the wind would pick up the heavy beams and 4 man crew and carry them away, because a woman was hired for ever 4 man crew and her job was to walk beside the men and keep her hand on top of each of the 12 inch X 12 inch beams at all times, the only thing I could see that she was doing there was holding down the beams the men were hired to lift.

I have seen women painters (as in auto body) and painters helpers who could put their male counterparts in the shade because they were more particular, had a steadier hand, a better eye and they turned out fewer Yo-Yos or do over jobs.   I have worked women warehouse persons who could do their job as well as any man.  But  I once had to threaten to resign myself in order to get one woman named Beth fired and keep he in the can.  Yes Beth had children but she wanted to either stay drunk or shacked up from Friday till noon :30 on Wendsday.  She even seemed surprised by her last termination which I found strange because I could not imagine a man in the same situation wanting to know what he did to get fired.  But Beth had been fired and reinstated numerous times by a too kind boss, but the other employees (women included) who came to work on time had to work two jobs for one pay check to take up the slack for Beth.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2013, 02:23:05 PM »

My sensitivity, Kingbee, is to people adding or taking words away from my quotes and then putting them as mine.

Puhlease. Relieve yourself of any worry about my doubt that women can work as hard as men.
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iddee
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2013, 05:21:16 PM »

Puhlease.... Don't ignore me. I posted two threads pointed at you, and got no answer, ""or response"" from either. If you have no comeback, I guess it's beyond your power to agree.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kingbee
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2013, 09:37:22 PM »

Here is what luvin honey said.
Kingbee, it helps if you preserve quotes instead of changing them. Here's what I actually said:

"The point is most people in this era don't consider it to be that groundbreaking to ask for equal opportunities for people, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. I didn't realize that was a "bra-burning" concept at this stage of American history."

AND HERE IS more of what you said. Less the parts that I view as racist and that you seem to want to paint me with.  Besides it is you who first used the term “BRA BURNER” at least between you and I.

... is everyone who speaks up for what they feel to be women's rights a "bra burner"? …Here I thought that was a 70s or 60s term. Kind of like "uppity CENSORED." I thought we'd grown past both of them.... As for your original question,  have no opinion on it whatsoever, having no experience with the military at all.

You seem to have a lot of experience with nothing, but before you get your undies in a wad and inadvertently set fire to your bra, I took the liberty to quote your words without changing them.
I however did bracket my words used to clarify your words to indicate that those words were not your words but my own.  That is a perfectly acceptiable way to clarify a statement that is unclear.  Perhaps you should go back to highschool English class.  Or is the English language are now considered a big part of the problem in the circles that you run in?

Those evil liberals, trying to take the pain from derogatory terms.

.......... The point is most people in this [the bra burning] era don't consider it to be that groundbreaking to ask for equal opportunities for people, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation...
 

What the bra burners you referenced actually believe in, is not equal rights for women but outcomes equal to those men enjoy.  Never mind whether the bra burners can earn these rewards with the amount of effort, that they are capable of or willing to make. 
 
What you seem to advocate is not equal rights for women but rather an illegitimate or sexists form of Marxism/Socialism. 
To Whit:
"From each according to her ability and to each according to to her needs."
That was the whole premise of the late Equal Rights Amendment, equality of outcome with out equality of effort.

It is intresting to note that the Democrat Party never got behind the ERA because of Trade Union opposition and that the Democrat Party infact attacked the ERA as a feel good peace of make work legislation intended only to benefit upper middle class Republican women.
[/quote] 
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luvin honey
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« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2013, 11:30:51 AM »

You know what, kingbee and iddee? I'm going to give my BP a break and start ignoring people who cannot even try to have a polite conversation. As a non-military person, I apparently have little experience with ANYthing and nothing to offer to this conversation anyway.

What I am is grateful to grow up in a family filled with capable, strong, intelligent women,
and men who weren't afraid of or intimidated by them.

As I've said in other threads, it takes a strong man to be with a strong woman. While I'm sure women in the military could be a safety concern and perhaps not a great idea in ALL positions, I think women are as capable or more capable than men in most employment positions society has to offer. And as I already said, father and mothers should SHARE childcare responsibilities so that capable women are not left in the dust in their careers, if it's a career they want to advance in.

Iddee, sometimes people don't respond NOT because they have nothing to say, but because it is pointless to continue saying them. And sometimes people are busy living LIFE instead of hovering around contentious threads such as this one. It's a little self-absorbed to think that a delayed response has anything to do with you.
Kingbee, you're such an offensive ass that I won't even bother responding to you.
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The pedigree of honey
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2013, 09:32:41 PM »

I'm pretty sure I could train women to be the most ruthless, vicious fighting machines the world has ever seen.  "Girls, here's what I want you to do: - Your enemy is actually your boyfriend/husband, and he's just come home at 02:30, smelling of bourbon, there's glitter on his cheek, and lipstick on his neck. - Go Get 'em!" - This is of course only for 'no prisoners/no quarter' conditions.
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dixiebooks
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« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2013, 11:43:36 PM »

Shameful. -js
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James M. Wagner
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« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2013, 10:54:09 PM »

I think it's a bad idea... and it's going to lead to unnecessary deaths and costs. But, then again, when has that ever been a problem for our government...? Especially when political correctness was in play.

Even if women can meet the same requirements as their male counterparts on the front lines, and most of them cannot, it brings about all kinds of awkward and potentially hazardous situations. It needlessly complicates things, too.

Rolling towards Iraq, some combat units were crammed shoulder to shoulder in armored personnel carriers for days with very few stops. Need to defecate while on the move? You have to use a bag and do it in front of everyone else in the back of the apc while it's rolling through the desert. How is a woman going to feel about dumping in a bag in front of a bunch of men, all crammed into the back of an apc? How are the men going to feel about it? Stopping and unloading, just so someone can save their dignity, can potentially cost lives when every minute counts during an assault deep into the heart of a hostile nation.

After long patrols, before the infrastructure was in place to accommodate the soldiers, the Marines would sometimes just line up, undress and get hosed down, together. Is a woman going to stand in line, naked, like the rest of them? Separate bathing times or facilities is going to cost money or time (or both) during those first few weeks of a hostile action.

Like it or not, guys like women. They like looking at them, talking about them, etc. Often, this strays into more "crude" areas. It's natural... it's why pin-ups were so popular in the past, it's one of the motivating factors for units full of men. Are women going to be ok with this kind of thing? I would hope so... but there is bound to be that 5% that think such overt sexualization of women is unacceptable or uncomfortable.

Of course, there's also the natural, ingrained instinct of most men to protect women. It's hard-wired into our genes. Military training and discipline can certainly mitigate this to a certain extent... but you can't just undo thousands upon thousands of years of instinct. This could lead to some dangerous risk taking.

Finally, what about the shitstorm that is bound to erupt when a female soldiers is captured, raped, tortured, beheaded, etc...? You know the media is going to show that in a different light... which is likely to place more stress than usual on the military.

I just think this is a bad idea, and will lead to innumerable problems.
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indypartridge
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« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2013, 07:24:57 AM »

Anyone remember the draft? Men are still required to register for Selective Service.

Back in 1981, the Supreme Court upheld the legality of men-only draft registration for ONE reason: women weren't allowed in combat.  I don't think we'll have to wait very long for this issue to be revisited in the courts.

What will happen with public opinion when our 18 year-old daughters have to register for the draft?
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kathyp
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« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2013, 11:54:27 AM »

acrolte, the problem is that these decisions are made by civilians who have never served.  they are making decisions based on their political agendas, not based on what is best for the military or what will work. 

because civilians run the military, we are at their mercy.  we have fewer and fewer people who have served, and more people who are agenda driven. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2013, 05:39:53 PM »

A little something to consider.  How is a 120 pound woman, wearing and carrying 35 lbs of uniform, ratioins, water, first aid supplies, equipment, don't forget batteries, not to mention a weapon and extra ammo supposed to grab a 200 pound male causality by his blouse epaulets and drag that man, his equipment, ammo, weapon, etc etc behind cover so that he can receive medical attention or be evacuated?  It ain't going to happen folks.  Obama's hope is that this policy is the gift that keeps on giving after he is gone.  His intent it to regulate the United States into an inferion position in the world.  Remember POTUS wants World Economic Justice (that is the whole idea behind Carbon Taxes) and that means tearing down the strong, and the rich by any means and making the citizen of the rich nations equal to the poorest, the most wretched, and the weakest Earthling out there.  It isn't enough for Obama to help the poor become rich because riches for all is not Obama's solution, in Obama's world the rich are the problem and equal poverty for all is the answer. 

If you wish I guess you could look at Obama's economic, foreign, and military policies and say that he is creating a new nation to be called Chad on the Chesapeake.
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kathyp
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« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2013, 06:59:10 PM »

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How is a 120 pound woman, wearing and carrying 35 lbs of uniform, ratioins, water, first aid supplies, equipment, don't forget batteries, not to mention a weapon and extra ammo supposed to grab a 200 pound male causality by his blouse epaulets and drag that man, his equipment, ammo, weapon, etc etc behind cover so that he can receive medical attention or be evacuated?  It ain't going to happen folks.  Obama's hope is that this policy is the gift

probably the least of the worries.  there are plenty of 120 pound men who might have the same problem  smiley.  besides, i have watched some itty bitty women do just that in training and the only adrenalin they had going was a big gunny up their backside.  under fire, they could lift the entire platoon  evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2013, 02:50:05 PM »

    The powers that be, should be ashamed of themselves. In my opinion. How can anyone with a heart, send females to the front line, to fight full grown, angry men, who want to kill ? As I have stated before, I do not have military experience however I do have experience. In my years as a deputy sheriff, my two favorite people to work with were females. My only concern was during physical confrontations, they were useless. Whether in some ones living room or in a bar, the girls just got tossed around. Actually getting in the way. I don't care how much weight lifting is invested or how good the cardio is,  women do not have the upper body strength. What will happen to a female in hand to hand combat ? In  my opinion, she will be killed. No disrespect to the girls! They do very well in law enforcement. In the military, to put them on the front line is just stupid and cruel.  
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kathyp
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2013, 05:06:44 PM »

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My only concern was during physical confrontations, they were useless

fortunatly, we are not tasked with arresting people...or at least we shouldn't be!   grin

Quote
What will happen to a female in hand to hand combat

properly trained, it has nothing to do with strength.  of course, not all the services train to the same level.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Bee Happy
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2013, 10:46:49 PM »


Quote
What will happen to a female in hand to hand combat

properly trained, it has nothing to do with strength.  of course, not all the services train to the same level.....

The "toughest" martial arts instructor (also the 'funnest', but not necessarily 'best' - very good though) Was a "girl" who was easily a foot and 60 pounds smaller than me. Getting her to submit to a technique was like trying to strangle an eel. (try strangling an eel someday). You couldn't hit her - she was never 'there' - you couldn't body punch her (she was also not there, but would aid you faster to the ground.). If you tried to put her in a lock, you were soon to find out how easy a lock is reversed.  Girls are often better than Men more quickly thoroughly than men - because the ego with "upper body strength" gets in the way of learning the art properly.
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kathyp
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2013, 11:23:35 PM »

don't get me wrong, i have other concerns about both women and gays in the field. those concerns don't have to do with meeting the demands of the mission as long as training has a reasonable chance of washing them out.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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