Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
December 29, 2014, 02:34:43 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Women in combat?  (Read 5395 times)
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« on: January 23, 2013, 04:50:47 PM »

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/23/panetta-opens-combat-roles-to-women/

this just hit Drudge.  i have mixed feelings about this.  on the one hand, one of the reasons i was not in favor of ending DADT was that it has been a bit of a disaster, certainly not an overwhelming +, to have put women on ships and in the field.  i say this as a female who spent most of my time in the field.  i felt that adding a 3rd gender (or 4th) to the mix and then not at least providing separate facilities was going to add to the already existing problems.  the problems that most never hear about because they don't fit the activist narrative. 

on the other hand...it is a fact that it is harder to compete for promotions if you are restricted in where you can serve.  if there are two slots for advancement and one has combat experience, the other none, all other things being equal, the combat experience will get the advancement.  also, there are no front lines.  women are ending up in combat situations, often without the kind of training they would have gotten as a male.  this puts them at risk.

i'm less worried about things like capture and rape.  if you are captured by the current enemy, you will probably get your head chopped off. if you get raped first, i'm not sure that makes the head chopping part so much worse.

i would absolutely keep them out of special forces unless you made all female teams.  men and women relate differently and the cohesion of the team is the primary concern.  when you mix genders, you don't have the same sense of team.  you work differently.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
AllenF
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8186

Location: Hiram, Georgia


« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2013, 05:06:19 PM »

I think on average, the female can not keep up with the standards required for special forces (I could not come close to those standards).  But the fighting front line troops, yes.   Fighting today has changed so from wars past.  I find no problem with females in front line combat.  POW is something that needs to be addressed in training and may already be part of training.  But the fighting today with drones, missiles, and tanks, war has just changed.     
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2013, 06:29:59 PM »

it has and women are finding themselves up there anyway.  they might as well have the training and opportunity for advancement.  there are no  front lines anymore, so....

BUT, the standards must remain the same.  if women can't meet the standards, they should not be out there. 
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Fox Creek
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 568

Location: Pollock Pines Ca.


« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2013, 02:32:24 AM »

    Like Kathyp I have mixed feelings on this. I do not have military experience. My experience comes in law enforcement. I worked with female deputies quite often and respected their abilities, ( sometimes Superior ) except in one area. Physical confrontations. Women do not have the horsepower, as in upper body strength. So my question would be, what are the chances in to days military, a female could end up in hand to hand combat? Maybe Kathyp would know.  
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2013, 11:25:04 AM »

it can happen.  any time you are fighting in close quarters, urban warfare for instance, it's possible.  there's a reason we still learn to fix bayonets  grin

but...the women are already there.  we are sending them out a emissaries in these towns.  dumbest dang thing i have ever seen. 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/04/01/sensitivity-training-female-u-s-soldiers-in-afghanistan-encouraged-to-wear-hijab/

they need the training and equipment, or they need to not be there.

i don't have an answer, but found this to be interesting.

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/issues/military.shtml

check under Getting Involved.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Keith13
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1822


Location: Baton Rouge, LA


« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2013, 11:30:45 AM »

it has and women are finding themselves up there anyway.  they might as well have the training and opportunity for advancement.  there are no  front lines anymore, so....

BUT, the standards must remain the same.  if women can't meet the standards, they should not be out there. 

But Kathy thats the problem the standards aren't the same. Take the PT test there are two very different scoring systems for males and females. Obstacle course girls are allowed to use steps or ladders for the walls.

I understand there are a select few women who can make a forced 12 mile march while carrying 100lbs in a ruck. But ALL male infantry troops have to meet that mark. Could  75% of females meet that standard or even 25%? I would say no.

this is without even giving thought to male female hormones in the back of a stryker. This is a problem just waiting to happen. I am so glad I ETSed the service when I saw obama elected.

Keith
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2013, 12:03:36 PM »

guess i got out to soon.  the Marines never offered me a step ladder!!  shocked

the hormone thing can be an issue.  navy has been dealing with it for year on ships.  the other services can take lessons from them.  it's going to be worse with gays serving openly.  not sure how that's going to be handled. 

guess my thing is that women are already ending up in combat situations and they are not getting the combat training and equipment.  they are also not getting the promotions without the combat experience.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2013, 01:10:36 PM »

the hormone thing can be an issue.  navy has been dealing with it for year on ships.  the other services can take lessons from them.  it's going to be worse with gays serving openly.  not sure how that's going to be handled. 

Can you explain that?

Are you saying that hormones for gays are far worse than heterosexual folks?

Are you saying guys will be prancing around flaunting their sexuality?

What issues are you saying are a problem? I would think that if someone does their job, that what they do when they are off the job, what would you care? Or is this a "sin" thing, where it should not be tolerated?
Do you care just as much of some heterosexual guy as to what they are doing on their offtime? I was slamming women left and right when I was in the military. Never had a superior or another military member care...except the time I jumped a higher NCO's wife. We were all adults. Nobody cared who slept with who. Why would you care now?
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 01:20:11 PM »

my dear, if it were about civilian conditions there would be no issue with either women or gays.  since you are clueless about military conditions, it's not worth my time to have this conversation with you...yet again.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 01:32:30 PM »

Don't patronize me.

You started with women, then you brought gays into it.

Now, instead of explaining yourself, you side step the issue and my questions as if dialog and enlightening another person of your comments are beneath you.

Very typical. you make broad strokes, then degrade another person in attempts to not answer the question. If you are not willing to discuss with those that see things differently, why have a conversation to start with. how sad and boring to only discuss with those that either think just like you, or agree with your position.

I was in the military. I don't have an issue with gays serving. I knew many of them. I;m just trying to find out, beyond just religious hatred, why someone would care and what possible problems you see would be at play with a gay in the military. They do exist. they are already in combat. they are in special forces.

but go ahead....hide your head.

Ignorance seems rampant lately.
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 02:04:34 PM »

and it's typical of you to act the jerk when you are challenged.  since i have explained my position several times over the last year, i just don't see how you can't understand it.  that leaves me with the belief that you are just looking for an argument that i am not willing to have. 

i told you how i feel and why.  if you don't agree, that's fine.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 02:22:52 PM »

I must of missed those threads. You will have to excuse me if I have not read every post you made in the past and then use as an excuse to side step questions.

But don't worry too much. I also confront those that say women can not, or should not do certain things. I still have friends who think women should be barefoot and pregnant. They should not be clergy. In fact, I still hear some say that NO women should even be in the military.

Women, blacks, gays, or anyone else.....I measure them for the character and person they are. I do not label others. I see others as friends. People I can trust. And I do not go around constantly thinking they are gay. I think for anyone to suggest that gays can not do certain jobs is akin to being a ho-mophob. Hard to think it still exists. And to suggest that other can not do their jobs if they know one of the group is gay, is also wrong and judgemental.

I know you probably have mentioned these type issues probably many times. And you probably have never had too many openly question your comments. I understand that the average guy could not ever be seen sticking up for gays. Somehow that makes them less of a man in their own mind, or are afraid that others might think that.

If a gay can do the job and pass the test, then he should have the job. The same with a women. And to suggest that special circumstances needs to be made because of someones sexuality, is perhaps a bit outdated. I suppose some think that a gay in special forces would be at risk from the group. How sad.

Women could not do certain jobs years ago. The same argument was made back then. They either could not do the job or it would cause others to change in some way either effecting safety or causing sexual problems.

And so it is the same for some with gays. But those walls are coming down no matter how fast you keep picking up the bricks putting them back on top.

In the future, perhaps you can hold back on the comments on topics that you are not willing to discuss, or defend by suggesting that others should have read every other thread you posted in. it would make you look a bit less defensive, and a bit more mature. But hey...what was that name you called me...a jerk. Real Class!

For the record, I was not challenged. You were! And you ran away as fast as you could.  Wink
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 02:47:23 PM »

wow. i hurt your tender feelings  Wink   sorry about that. 

let me ask you something.  why do we put men and women, in the military, in separate quarters?
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kingbee
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1083


Location: Big bend of the Tennessee River


« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2013, 01:59:48 PM »

Unit coheasion is everthing, GIs don't fight for their own lives, however they do put their lives in danger to fight for and maybe save the lives of the men serving with them.

One thing I am familar with is a certian female captian who was in Airborn School shortly after the 82nt 101st Divisions & the 173rd Regiment went coed. 
In Airborn school any GI who dropes out from any run, at any time, and for any reason, flunked or washed out, period.

Except for the one female in the program, a captian who could not run a mile without falling down and puking her guts out before riding back to quarters.  How's that for instilling respect for officers, in the enlisted ranks, especially female officers?

The average male infantry man can hurl an M67 hand granade about 110 feet.  Then when it became obvious that many if not most women can not trough a one pound hand granade over 50 feet, the requirments that everyone (male as well as female) must toss a handgranade 75 feet was dropped in favor of 50 feet.  BTW, 50 feet (15 meters from the point of detonation) is the radius at which a M67 handgranade will kill or wound 50% of the people who are exposed to its fragments.  Doesen't that make you have a warm and fuzzy feeling for that 5' 4'' infrantry womon covering your flank during a night attack or ambush?
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2013, 02:51:22 PM »

Quote
Doesen't that make you have a warm and fuzzy feeling for that 5' 4'' infrantry womon covering your flank during a night attack or ambush?

which is why standards shouldn't change in order to admit women.

when i went out and trained with the marines i was expected to do what they did.  that's not to say that i didn't get creative sometimes when i had to do something and figure out a better way for me.   Wink

from the time i went in, to the time i left, training has changed a lot.  it's about to change again.  this was not because of women being added (in my service) but because of the changes in tech and mission.  some of the things we used to be required to do, are not relevant anymore, and new things have to be added. 

can i have a 5' 4" female marine instead??  evil
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kingbee
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1083


Location: Big bend of the Tennessee River


« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 01:09:30 AM »

...
can i have a 5' 4" female marine instead?? 

Why Miss kathyp, I though that every Marine was an Infantry Person.  At least that's what they all tell me. grin
Logged
Keith13
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1822


Location: Baton Rouge, LA


« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2013, 09:58:28 AM »

I believe its every marine a rifleman.

Correct Kathy??

Keith
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2013, 10:04:28 AM »

every Marine is a warrior  grin

but, because the women are not expected to go into combat, not all the training is the same.  i was not a Marine.  i was a Navy corpsman assigned to the marines.  because they were just allowing women into the full program, we trained as if we were men.  i hope that has not changed.  i don't know.  not many of us finished the class.  that is as it should be.

the advantage was the we got all the field training with the marines as if we were going into combat with them.  that included all the weapons training, urban warfare training, etc.  that was back in the day when WE knew terrorism was coming, but the govt had not quite caught up  Wink
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kingbee
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1083


Location: Big bend of the Tennessee River


« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2013, 10:13:16 PM »

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson012713C.html
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15342


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2013, 11:50:39 PM »

i talked to my son who is a young navel officer and has never know a navy that wasn't integrated.  he never had (save one) a complaint about the work the women did.  hid did say that if there were discipline problems with his sailors, 9 out of 10 times it would involve the women in some way.  they were fortunate and had no pregnancies that he knew of on either of his ships.  both were smaller ships.

because having women on the ships is the reality they live with, they dealt with the added discipline problems as a matter of course.   those problems were unnecisary because it was never necessary to put women on ships.  it has never worked well.  it was never about doing what was best for the military.  it was about appeasing some bra burning congresswomen.

from the article:  and that the military will not suffer as a consequence of their absence, but more likely improve. If all true, then we are onto the brave new world!

and we have the answer for women, it has not improved.  no reason to believe that it will improve with openly gay serving, but will simply add another layer of complication....that yes, will be dealt with, but will further distract from missions.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.601 seconds with 22 queries.

Google visited last this page December 23, 2014, 02:46:18 AM