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Author Topic: Lets do something!  (Read 2445 times)
Fox Creek
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« on: January 22, 2013, 03:11:12 PM »

    The good news is people have finally realized what Obama is up to. Perhaps because the pocketbook is thinner. Everywhere you look people are complaining about the way things are going. The coffee shop, grocery store, the internet.
    Just complaining does not get us anywhere. What are you doing to stop the madness in Washington? Posting and debating is fun and interesting, however it gets nothing done.
    How about calling your representative and asking when they will be holding their town hall meetings? They will all be home the next couple of weeks.
    Have you though about contacting any local groups who have been putting pressure on politicians in Washington and the state houses. There are groups out there accomplishing, working towards solving the very problems we complain about.
    All is not lost. (Although sometimes I'm thinking all is lost.) Obama is false. His policies are false. Neither can hold up in the long run. The constitution is still there. Its real. Its the truth.
    My point is, don't just sit and complain. Join those who are working to end the madness. We cannot trust the republicans to do the right thing. They will have to be pressured into doing the right thing. 
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 09:41:52 PM »

Fox Creek I agree with your suggestion “We cannot trust the republicans to do the right thing.”!

I have gotten involved in some local government problems and it’s truly mind numbing boring to try to accomplish anything.  You would have to have the patience of a saint and the life span of Moses to get anything accomplished.  I have neither and hence I really hate dealing with government.  Hopefully someday they’ll all be replaced with computers.  Isn't that the way it is in Buck Rodgers 25 century…or was than the Cylones from Battlestar Galactica?
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 10:00:11 PM »

i love grass roots projects, but eventually they have to become involved in the process.  that's where many people lose interest. they are good for the protest, but not for the long haul work.

you are correct, we need to be involved.  not just by making phone calls, but by being informed and by actually working for the candidates we support.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 06:37:36 AM »

Politically speaking....

I gave up on the republican party state/locally, where many times change starts, when they shoved Lynn Swann down our throats without as much as a public speaking event. That was the day I quit giving to the political party.

The republicans will lose on items such as immigration reform. The average person, me included, does not think we will EVER deport 40 million illegals. And to have even a few nuts out there saying so, is harmful and unrealistic. The party is stuck with a few leaders that stick their foot in their mouths everytime a question like abortion comes up. And again, the average person is not concerned daily with another person reproductive rights. I also do not think you can "pray" away gay. And the list goes on.

I am for smaller government. I am for lower taxes. I am for a strong defense. I am for a social program that truly helps those that need help. Unfortunately, I think the average person really, and I'm talking deep from within, could care less about whether the debt is 17 trillion or 50 trillion, as long as they are (or think) getting their piece of the pie.

Unfortunately, the republican party, time and time again, decides to go down paths that are loser topics and ones they will NOT ever win over the average person. Rubio said it recently that the republican party will not win moving forward with the same issues they constantly drag out every election cycle. Times change and so do people. Even conservatives do not go to church as much as they once did. And saying that because we took prayer out of school, or having people like Beck suggest we all need to "find our soul" once again and through prayer we can make it all work out, is not going to get it done.

For me, I think that the only way for change at this point, and I'm talking about fiscal and government as a whole, is a allowing the entire system to crash. Let Obama raise the debt. After all, the average American person, or at least most voters, want it this way. Do you really think that the republicans will win with the same message going forward? With some guy talking about a women being raped and being forced to carry the baby, and talking about throwing 40 million people back across the border, and fighting so hard for millionaires?

I wish I could take the far right and just get rid of them, from a party sense. They will also taint the republican party into something that is harmful and from this point forward, a losing position.

Obama and the dems are smart for their positions. They may not be good for the country, but they are for many individuals, or at least the selling points are. And when 51% live off the government, the republicans will not win anything talking about taking it away from the 51%.

I'm not saying I will vote for the left. I am not saying everything the left is doing is right. I would never vote for a democrat. But I know that I am not too proud about the republicans. And if I was a betting man looking from the outside, I would be betting on the dems. The republicans continue to pick loser topics to hang their hats on.

"candidates we support" just place folks in boxes. There are so many "we" groups out there, that I question the whole "we" thing. And while the tea party is a nice alternative to the republicans, they have the same flaws moving forward.
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 09:34:17 AM »

interesting view of the republican party, but not mine.  you'd be hard pressed to find anyone more conservative than i.  in fact, i think much of the republican party has become to liberal and this is the reason for losing.

if you recall, in both the 2010 and 2012 elections, there were no social issues that were front and center in the republican agenda.  we took lots of seats in 2010 on the very issues you are concerned about.  we lots 2012 (for lots of reasons) but among them, we put up another RINO candidate.  even though most of us voted for him because the alternative was worse, many either did not vote or voted RP or GJ.  that was enough to push the election to obama.  you can hardly call RP a band leader for the social issues that bother you. 

you will have many views in any party and that's a good thing.  if we did not have people who had strong views on social issues, we'd be no different than the other party.  in fact, it is a good thing to have people who care about things like abortion, immigration controls, etc.  you may see them as the extreme, but they put a check on those who either don't care or a to far to the left. 

and....BTW...you don't have to be religious to have negative views on things like abortion, gay marriage and gays in the military, the the wish to mine the border if we can't get a handle on ILLEGALs coming across.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 10:16:14 AM »

interesting view of the republican party, but not mine.  you'd be hard pressed to find anyone more conservative than i.  in fact, i think much of the republican party has become to liberal and this is the reason for losing.

Kathy,
The fact that the party has become more liberal, proves my point. They did this because they needed too. yes you can claim victories in past elections, not by perhaps better positions, but probably by hatred for Obama, and fear moving forward about "socialism".

I do not care whether it is the republicans or tea party, if they continue the positions of throwing 40 million back across the border, denigrating women, and fighting for millionaires, they will continue to lose moving forward. It is too easy for the dems to have a discussion on abortion, immigration, and other points, and make the republicans look bad.

And for all the issues, I think a vast number in the middle do not place their vote on issues that the republicans hang their hats. I do think that many want less debt, and a better future. but the republicans go to a convention and get bogged down on "abortion" language. And I think they lose women for it.

Will the republicans really lower debt? Did they do this the last time they were power? Or are some more concerned with legislating morals? More concerned with two gays they never met, or forcing a women who was raped to carry to term?

Sure for many it is about choosing between two evils. And you can get some to swing their vote if the other side look bad enough. That had happened in the past. It really is not about a winning position from the right, it is hoping for a losing position from the left. Many hope Obama fails, as this is the path of getting elected. Not really that anyone actually think that the right will do any better, just not as bad.

Do you really think the vast majority of folks care about 17 trillion in debt? I'm not talking about you and me, and perhaps other educated folks. I'm talking about the vast majority of voters that are concerned with everyday issues. They do not.

But go ahead.....think that the right will get elected again talking about full term pregnancy for rape victims, and caring about two dudes getting married that you have never met, or claiming that 40 million should be kicked back across the border. I do not think those are winning positions. You can cling to these key talking points, but I think the corner has been turned, and it will be very hard for it to reverse without a major fail from the left.

So the republicans are too liberal. Maybe some elected are. Perhaps they did that in a changing world. And having the right place their bets on talking about women's reproductive rights, gay issues, and morals, will not improve things. They will if "conservative" is about fiscal responsibility and others matters, and even that will be hard to do as I already pointed out when so many are living off the system.

If you are talking about "moral" conservatism, that is not going to win based on abortion, gay, and other issues. That will continue to paint candidates in a box and they will lose moving forward.

Sorry, that is how I see it. I think the republicans, and conservatives, need to evaluate their positions and understand that even though they may have these views, many others do not. And digging in and being more to the right, is a losing position. Going right worked for Reagan. But I do not see that happening anytime soon, without complete failure from the left which would provide the opening the republicans would need.

The rep. party can talk about debt all they want. But many do not want to take a chance on the party when so much other "morality" issues are included.

Give me candidates that want true conservatism from a political stance, about debt, military, and personal freedom. And leave all the other morals and social crap at the door. But because they can not do that, the right will lose moving forward.

The right could not even get elected with 8% unemployment, gas around 4 dollars, a out of control debt, and the economy in chaos. And the republicans get caught up talking about immigration, gays, and abortion restrictions for rape victims.

Yeah.....that will work!.....NOT!

But go ahead and select a candidate that fits your concerns of gays in the military.  rolleyes
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 10:40:23 AM »

Quote
I do not care whether it is the republicans or tea party, if they continue the positions of throwing 40 million back across the border, denigrating women, and fighting for millionaires, they will continue to lose moving forward. It is too easy for the dems to have a discussion on abortion, immigration, and other points, and make the republicans look bad.

most of this is incorrect.  as for moving forward, many of us do not agree that going left, gets you forward. 

Quote
Will the republicans really lower debt? Did they do this the last time they were power? Or are some more concerned with legislating morals? More concerned with two gays they never met, or forcing a women who was raped to carry to term?

will they lower debt?  well, there you have a point.  they have not do a great job in the past.  not since the republican congress under clinton.  to legislating morals:  please give some examples.  i will say this about my personal position on abortion:  if abortion is murder, as i have come to believe it is (until someone can prove when life begins) then the circumstances of conception do not change that fact.  as you know from past conversations, my position is not a religious one.  it comes from my past employment.

Quote
Do you really think the vast majority of folks care about 17 trillion in debt? I'm not talking about you and me, and perhaps other educated folks. I'm talking about the vast majority of voters that are concerned with everyday issues. They do not.

nope.  i think as long as they are getting theirs, they do not care.  they will be the first to riot in the streets when their stuff doesn't come, but at the moment, they are good. 

Quote
Give me candidates that want true conservatism from a political stance, about debt, military, and personal freedom. And leave all the other morals and social crap at the door. But because they can not do that, the right will lose moving forward.

this would be the tea party.  this is the platform.  while there are individual candidates that also have "moral" convictions, the primary reason for the formation of, and the platform they demand from candidates they support, are exactly what you want. 
unfortunately for you, most of those people who have the firm stand on financial and military issues, also have the moral issues.  there is a reason for that.  they are connected.  the financial and military stance is as much a moral stance as your social issues.

Quote
The right could not even get elected with 8% unemployment, gas around 4 dollars, a out of control debt, and the economy in chaos.

the right wasn't running for president.

Quote
But go ahead and select a candidate that fits your concerns of gays in the military

not my only concern, but among them.   of course, i served and spent most of my time in the field, so i have a different perspective on how this works....
gays serving openly is a done deal now, so it's not going to be on any agenda from here on out, i think.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 11:05:42 AM »

> “We cannot trust the republicans to do the right thing.”!

We cannot trust the POLITICIANS to do the right thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  If you think you can trust the Democrats any more than the Republicans you are sadly deluded.
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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 12:16:24 PM »

It's easy for me.

I want a candidate that will work on safety, security, and financial issues of the country.

I don't need or want a person who wants to legislate morals, push personal religious stances, etc. To me, that can be left up to the individual. My idea of a smaller government translates across the board to include their control of what I do in my bedroom, house, or with another person. And I feel that way about everyone else. And to think some select candidates based on their personal pompous stances, religious or not, thinking they should legislate morals to me is not a role or definition of what government should be about.

The right (as a whole) thinks everyone (legal) should own any gun they want, then thinks that a gay in the military is wrong.  rolleyes

You are correct, the "right" did not run for president. But they as a group are defined by the whole, candidate included, and lost based on their positions. We can blame Mitt if you want. But I think much of it is defined by the positions of the party.

I would rather look at the overall party, and their dismal failure to broadcast a message of hope. They ran based on denigrating Obama, and probably justifiably so. But in the end, the tea party, the republicans, and the right, are defined by positions. And their positions, and what they hold dear, does not translate into getting votes.

I am against abortion myself. But I am in no way of the thought that I should tell others what they should do, and do not think selecting a candidate based on some litmus test of his abortion views is needed. It's like working for a great boss of a large company. I want a president to run the country like a business. I do not need to question the owner of a company as to his personal views on abortion in thinking whether I want a job. I have worked for many people, but have never delved into their personal life style.

I need someone to run the country. And not someone who will interject his personal morals into the job. Staying out of my of my life, a view I have for government, includes everything. And not just the matters that I disagree with.

I do not agree with the left. I do not agree with the right. I'm just stating that the right, in putting abortion on the table, and other unrealistic issues like throwing out 40 million people, and worrying about gays in the military, is the reason they are not in control.  Build a fence...sure! Threaten to kick out 40 million people....and you lose the argument, and the vote. You can argue the principle of how, why, and whether we have 40 million here illegally. But the solution and message in regards to a plan, is what decides votes.

Keep fighting against gays in the military....and you lose.

Threaten to kick out 40 million illegals.....and you lose.

Tell women they nust carry a pregnancy rape baby....and you lose.

You may feel very strong about these issues. I'm just telling you why your side, regardless of what that is, will continue to lose with those positions and goals.

Don't think so?.....the country is about as bad as it ever has been, (Inflation, debt, etc.)  and yet more people went with the left.

Not hard to understand why.
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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 12:23:44 PM »

> “We cannot trust the republicans to do the right thing.”!

We cannot trust the POLITICIANS to do the right thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  If you think you can trust the Democrats any more than the Republicans you are sadly deluded.

M.B. These "republican" jabs by some are just to have fun and get a reaction. Most of us have resorted to just ignoring it.  rolleyes
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 01:33:53 PM »

following your line of thinking there should be no laws at all except gun control?  i have a feeling that you think you are embracing the libertarian view of things, but missing the mark a bit.  none of what you assign to the republican party is true of the party line.  it may be true of some individules.

like you, i don't care what people do in the bedroom.  i think the issue of marriage should be left to the state.  unlike you, i have a problem with gays serving openly in the military, but it's a problem of structure.  DADT was a good compromise.  it worked.  changing it was about political agenda.

one of the problems we have with the degradation of our society is that we have failed to teach absolutes.  there are some things that are wrong and some that are right.  if, for instance, we teach that murder is wrong, but then teach that it's ok to kill unborn infants...and maybe a few old or disabled people....what have we taught?  we have taught that murder is only kind of wrong...depending on the circumstances....
to you, this seems like a foolish idea, but consider a society that has taught relativism for several generations.  what happens to the foundation of that society?  look around you.  it degrades.  surprise.

you make some valid points about winning.  if winning is the goal, then we should surely change on social issues.  then what?  then we are democrat lite and what difference does it make?
what you advocate is what most european countries now have.  they have left, and far left.  there is no conservative position.  if that's what you want, go for it.

if you want the lunacy of RP or GJ, go for it.  you will continue to give elections to the far left and we will continue down the current path.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 02:38:46 PM »

kathy,
You are proving my point.

At one time, gays were not allowed in the military.

Then it was DADT, and easy for those against gays as a band-aid since if they did not know about it, they were happy. And if a gay was outed, then it was THEIR fault, and no longer worthy to serve in the military. Great fighter pilots and others were kicked out, under the assumption it was their fault since they let it come out.

Myself, I do not think being gay is "learned". I do not think you can pray away gay.

I happen to think that people are born gay and it is not for the lack of some dad passing a football in the backyard while teaching their son how to fart and grunt while scratching their asses.

But again you prove my point. You are against gays in the military. And while you claim that society has "degraded" for it, it is a place where people's viewpoints and attitudes have changed. More folks are tolerant and undersand that you can still be productive and a valuable person in society, even in the military, if gay. And that taking the position that gays can't do this, or shouldn't have this job, is a losing position.

I have many gay friends. My best man at my wedding was gay. And for me to think that these guys can not serve in the military is something of like years ago.

I grew up in a time going to church being taught that Catholics are bad, Mormons are part of a cult, gays chose to be gay, and many other items items. They included the idea that blacks were less than whites, Indians were only as smart as they were because we "taught" them and if not for us they would still act like heathens. The list is many. Even whacking the willie was considered a ticket to hell. And while I might be adding to the degrading of society, I will not be telling my son that same crap.
 

If you want to have these views, that is up to you. I think most have come out of the dark ages and understand that to still claim that gays can not be a vital part of society, is amazing to me.

I grew up in a school that had prayer. I did little of it during that moment every morning in homeroom. And I think those that claim society has been degraded by the mere fact that items like prayer is no more in schools, is just fooling themselves.  I do not look to public schools to teach my kids religion.

Anyways, I understand your position. I'm just questioning your position that society has degraded, and the way to get it back is to go back to attacking gays, or as some others think; prayer in school will make good students, etc. Society changes. And voters values change. You can cling to your anti-gay positions all you want. But I think these are becoming far less issues than they were years ago. And those that cling to these "values", is in a losing position.

Years ago, even divorce was frowned upon and the church had women staying in BAD situations due to a vow taken. But I think most look a bit different today and would encourage a women to leave an abusive husband, vows or not. I guess that degrades society.

Why would anyone care about a gay in the military? He/She either does the job or not. But to dig into the personal life of another and deny another person a job or career, is wrong to me. I guess if you think that he "learned" how to be gay and chose this way, then I guess nothing will ever change your stance.

However, many others have changed their position. Being gay is not the same evil it once was. And any political party hanging their hats on bashing gays, while saying this is a reason of the fall of our society, will be watching the rest of society elect other people than what you want.

Religious people think about others way too much, and would do better looking in the mirror. And worry a bit less about the next person.
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2013, 03:22:48 PM »

I think BjornBee is coming around.  I don’t think most Americans want the Politicians to be our moral police.  That is what religion and church is for.  This is where the Republicans have really shot themselves in the foot.  They’re NEVER going to get a majority again as long as they insist of being the morality police.  Of coarse they themselves fail miserably at morality and this just makes them look even sillier when they get up on their high horses and start preaching to the rest of us.
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2013, 05:33:27 PM »

It's easy for me.

I want a candidate that will work on safety, security, and financial issues of the country.

I don't need or want a person who wants to legislate morals, push personal religious stances, etc. To me, that can be left up to the individual. My idea of a smaller government translates across the board to include their control of what I do in my bedroom, house, or with another person. And I feel that way about everyone else. And to think some select candidates based on their personal pompous stances, religious or not, thinking they should legislate morals to me is not a role or definition of what government should be about.

The right (as a whole) thinks everyone (legal) should own any gun they want, then thinks that a gay in the military is wrong.  rolleyes

You are correct, the "right" did not run for president. But they as a group are defined by the whole, candidate included, and lost based on their positions. We can blame Mitt if you want. But I think much of it is defined by the positions of the party.

I would rather look at the overall party, and their dismal failure to broadcast a message of hope. They ran based on denigrating Obama, and probably justifiably so. But in the end, the tea party, the republicans, and the right, are defined by positions. And their positions, and what they hold dear, does not translate into getting votes.

I am against abortion myself. But I am in no way of the thought that I should tell others what they should do, and do not think selecting a candidate based on some litmus test of his abortion views is needed. It's like working for a great boss of a large company. I want a president to run the country like a business. I do not need to question the owner of a company as to his personal views on abortion in thinking whether I want a job. I have worked for many people, but have never delved into their personal life style.

I need someone to run the country. And not someone who will interject his personal morals into the job. Staying out of my of my life, a view I have for government, includes everything. And not just the matters that I disagree with.

I do not agree with the left. I do not agree with the right. I'm just stating that the right, in putting abortion on the table, and other unrealistic issues like throwing out 40 million people, and worrying about gays in the military, is the reason they are not in control.  Build a fence...sure! Threaten to kick out 40 million people....and you lose the argument, and the vote. You can argue the principle of how, why, and whether we have 40 million here illegally. But the solution and message in regards to a plan, is what decides votes.

Keep fighting against gays in the military....and you lose.

Threaten to kick out 40 million illegals.....and you lose.

Tell women they nust carry a pregnancy rape baby....and you lose.

You may feel very strong about these issues. I'm just telling you why your side, regardless of what that is, will continue to lose with those positions and goals.

Don't think so?.....the country is about as bad as it ever has been, (Inflation, debt, etc.)  and yet more people went with the left.

Not hard to understand why.
the country is about as bad as it ever has been, (Inflation, debt, etc.)  and yet more people went with the left.


And it seems you have also.
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2013, 06:09:58 PM »

sterling, I think you missed the point.
Which is ironic since this is about the right not getting "it".  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2013, 06:20:37 PM »

i can see why the left would take the position it does on issues of morality.  

here are a few quotes from founders and then i'll explain them to our leftist and "other" friends   grin

 Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary stated, "The moral principles and precepts contained in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. . . All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible."

Robert Winthrop, Speaker of the U. S. House,  "Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet."

George Washington, General of the Revolutionary Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, First President of the United States of America, Father of our nation,  " Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society."

Benjamin Franklin, Signer of the Declaration of Independence "
  • nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."[/i]

    "Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness . . . it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof." Continental Congress, 1778

    these are the same people, when writing the bill of rights, made sure to include in the 1st amendment and instruction to congress not to create a state church, but to protect (all) religious freedom.  is there a conflict in their quotes, and then their later legislation?  no.  why not?

    they were creating from scratch a country that was designed to self govern.  almost all of the constitution is a restriction on what the central government can  do with all other powers given to the states.  the states to be run by the people of the states.  they also knew human nature and knew that man, left to his own devices, is not a very nice or even organized creature.  if there is no structure, man tends to devolve into self interested clans at war with other self interested clans.  what was the solution?  it was to recommend and encourage the moral structure of the Judeo-Christian beliefs.  the 10 commandments, if you will.  
    this is the structure that our country and those laws that we were given, are based on.  

    so back to the left....if you want to "fundamentally change" the country you need to attack the foundation.  you demonize the belief system and the backward people who cling to it.  the goal?  to replace the belief system with the government.
    it is the reason that communist countries ban or co-opt religious organizations when they take control.  

    it does not have to be the juedo-christian belief system that stands in the way of statists.  it is whatever system is the foundation of the society.  for instance, in china, they banned ancestry worship and went after the Buddhists.  statism is the replacement for all systems that might have more impact on society than the government can.

    if you call yourself a conservative, yet are annoyed by people who have or wish to preserve the moral founding of the country, you are helping the left accomplish it's goal.  

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2013, 06:28:12 PM »

Quote
Then it was DADT, and easy for those against gays as a band-aid since if they did not know about it, they were happy. And if a gay was outed, then it was THEIR fault, and no longer worthy to serve in the military. Great fighter pilots and others were kicked out, under the assumption it was their fault since they let it come out.

Myself, I do not think being gay is "learned". I do not think you can pray away gay.

I happen to think that people are born gay and it is not for the lack of some dad passing a football in the backyard while teaching their son how to fart and grunt while scratching their asses.

But again you prove my point. You are against gays in the military. And while you claim that society has "degraded" for it, it is a place where people's viewpoints and attitudes have changed. More folks are tolerant and undersand that you can still be productive and a valuable person in society, even in the military, if gay. And that taking the position that gays can't do this, or shouldn't have this job, is a losing position.

your point is not the same as mine.  you see it as a equal opportunity issue.  the military is not an equal opportunity employer, and it should not be.

i am against gays serving openly in the military as a mater of logistics and good discipline.  i know this is not someone who is a civilian can understand, but life in the military is different.  when we have men and women serve together, we given them separate facilities and we don't have them sleeping together.  when a gay member must keep their preference to themselves, it's not an issue.  when an openly gay member is in your shower, or sharing your two man tent, or squatting beside you over a latrine, it's bit different. 
this age group is 17 to 25 for the most part.  they are at the height of their sexual drive.  it's a problem when men and women serve in close quarters and we have now added a new problem.  one that was not necessary and did not meet the needs of the military.  it met the wants of the gay agenda people.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2013, 06:35:26 PM »

BTW....a lot of gays in the military used DADT as an out, just as a lot of women in the military have used pregnancy as an out.  now i guess they'll just be stuck like all the rest of us who volunteered.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2013, 06:41:43 PM »

You keep dragging in quotes from years ago, and I'll keep telling you why you will lose.  grin

When I talk of conservatism, I do not mean from a religious "We must all live by the scripture" conservatism.

I can easily sit along side a person from any faith on the school board, while respecting their personal beliefs, differences, and personal ideology. To me, religion has no part of politics. I can vote for a budget, do what is right for kids, and keep others safe, without one inkling of religion coming into it. It is a shame that others can not do that.

While I acknowledge other can not do that, it is also the reason it is a failing position.
People want safety, security, equal opportunity, and many others things from politicians. The average person does not want moral police being elected.

What you want personally, is one thing. You can believe anything you want. But when your religion, disrespect for others, and desire to tell others that your religion should be the foundation moving forward, it is a losing position.

We all act like these guys long ago had no fault. But they lived in a time of drastic difference from today. They lived in a time that a man could snap his finger and have his wide committed.  The examples are many. And for anyone to keep harping back to a time 200 years ago, and desiring something that you would not ever want today, is a pipe dream. Reality has passed you by. And part of that is for the fact that we are past the time of whipping and killing folks that are different. We no longer kill people who write left handed, and we no longer beat our wives and claim her as property. You can tell women all day long that her position is to follow her husband. But many women are way past that.  

But some will cling to any hope and think we will return to something from so far ago. People act as if times have not changed in 200 years.

And then you wonder why folks are leaving the right and all the religious morality they cast on others.

Rationalizing DADT as a "good" thing since some used it to get out is a classic stance.  Wink Think that point really stands on it's own merit?

You keep mentioning qoutes. And I keep telling you why the right will continue to lose.
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2013, 06:59:08 PM »

you are usually a pretty smart guy so you are either having a bad day or intentionally not understanding what i'm saying...whatever.  you keep doing what you are doing if that makes you happy.  i suspect that your guy lost by a huge margin and cost the rest of us 4 more years of Obama.  obviously, what you are peddling is not that popular either.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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