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Author Topic: Lance Armstrong  (Read 4747 times)
deknow
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2013, 10:06:19 PM »

All Lance did was take some chemicals during training to try to improve his body and now our pious beeks seem to be comparing that with a murderer and a molester?  Strange. huh
I didn't see the interview...but are you saying that he didn't use performance enhancing drugs and blood doping in competition, only i training?

But he did more than that...he lied about it...over and over.  He waited to admit the truth to Oprah until _after_ the statute of limitations ran out for perjury (his sworn testimony that he didn't do it), he sued his friends when all they did was tell the actual truth...not to mention all of the less overt pressures he put on everyone around him to ignore the truth....until he finally couldn't bear to see his 13 year old son believe and repeat the lies (conveniently after the statute of limitations of the perjury had passed).

I guess since Bernie Madoff made a lot of folks a lot of money (he did), he was a great money manager?
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JP
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2013, 10:22:46 PM »

Deknow, I believe you meant to say OJ was a great running back, correct?

Let's call a spade a spade.

OJ was a great running back. I don't think anyone would disagree with this fact. As a human being track record incredibly awful, well, a murderer. Can't get any scummier than that.

Lance on the other hand is apparently a jerk and an a-hole to just about everyone who knows him personally.  As for as his athletic accomplishments, how can you even consider they were accomplishments being they were done so with the aid of illegal substances that gave him an illegal and unfair advantage against those who were not doping or doing transfusions.

The real issue I have with Lance though is that he is a liar. Not only did he lie throughout his cycling career to the public and close friends but he lied to his own children and allowed his son to continually defend him and profess his innocence.

How can you as a caring citizen with any decency consider him anything less than filth?


...JP



 
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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2013, 10:32:44 PM »

OJ Simpson is a no good lying murdering S.O.B!
That doesn't change the FACT that he was a GREAT running back....Sorry!  Smiley
...but OJ wasn't a GREAT running back _because_ he is a murdering SOB.

Lance's athletic achievements were the _reason_ he did what he did, lied about it, and sued his friends for telling the truth.  What he is praised for was caused (at least in part) by cheating.

deknow

deknow,
A fair enough point...
Again, we're spinning our wheels here...

However, if you want to believe you can take an average athlete, give him some EPO and blood transfusions and have him win the Tour 7 times.  I'm afraid you know very little about PED's and even less about cycling.

You do realize, right, wrong, or indifferent, Lance didn't invent the use of PED or have a monopoly of there use in professional cycling.  It's well documented that the use of PED's were a part of the culture of professional cycling at the time and much more the norm than the exception.  Near every cyclist that finished in the top 15 at the tour during this era has either tested positive, been linked to a doping program, or admitted doping.

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"We must reject the idea that every time a lawís broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2013, 11:47:37 PM »

On a side note, for anyone remotely interested in this topic, I'd highly recommend Tyler Hamilton's book, The Secret Race.It's a fascinating read, it's a  behind the scenes look into the world of professional cycling.  For those that don't know, Tyler Hamilton was an elite professional cyclist that rode on Postal with Lance in his early Tours, he later left the Postal team to lead his own team and became a rival of Lance Armstrong.

Tyler won an Olympic Gold Medal in cycling, shortly before testing positive and receiving a two year band, a failed test which of course he lied about and denied vehemently for years (sounds familiar?)

Regardless, I think it's a fair attempt to tell the whole truth regarding the use of PED's and cycling.  For those of you on the "Lance is a terrible person" side of things, there are plenty of stories to support that, complete with examples of his bullying and intimidating people.
For those of you that can't imagine how a "good person" could possibly go down the road of using PED's and lying to friends and family about it....It lends an interesting prospective on that as well.

Besides, if people are going to claim to have ALL the answers on an issues, they should at least make an effort to be well informed.  Smiley
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"We must reject the idea that every time a lawís broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2013, 01:07:22 AM »

Besides, if people are going to claim to have ALL the answers on an issues, they should at least make an effort to be well informed.  Smiley
Are you sure you're not a moderate Moots?  You're beginning to sound like me  Smiley
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BlueBee
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« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2013, 01:09:05 AM »

Deknow, what are your feelings toward New Englandís beloved Pats?  I still see a lot of people still in the stands of Foxborough cheering them on.  Didnít Bill Bilichick lie about cheating and then get caught cheating?  Isnít he STILL the coach?  Isnít he still revered in New England as one of the greatest coaches?   What message does that send? 

This kind of reminds me of ex OSU football coach Jim Tressel.  His big ďcrimeĒ was lying about knowing some of his football players were trading football memorabilia for tattoos.  That eventually led to him getting fired and OSU disgraced in the national media.  Does that really make Jim Tressel unforgivable for all eternity?  Has beek morality gotten to the point that even one lie canít be forgiven?

I donít think Lance is a role model, but it surprises me how much vitriol beeks seem to have for this guy.
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edward
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« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2013, 08:20:21 AM »

he lied about it...over and over.  He waited to admit the truth to Oprah until _after_ the statute of limitations ran out for perjury (his sworn testimony that he didn't do it), he sued his friends when all they did was tell the actual truth...not to mention all of the less overt pressures he put on everyone around him to ignore the truth....until he finally couldn't bear to see his 13 year old son believe and repeat the lies (conveniently after the statute of limitations of the perjury had passed)

It gets worse and worse, He is using his son feeling bad about things??  

How convenient that he couldn't stand looking in his sons sad eyes anymore the same day that the statute of limitations ran out for perjury??

To me is seems everything this guy does everything for a reason, I wounder if he would have been so generous and such a philanthropist if he wasn't doing so many things he knew at the time to be bad and despicable?
A bit like buying redemption from the roman catholic church in the middle ages  Sad

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2013, 08:25:53 AM »

Holy Crap! Talk about some bleeding heart liberals.

Moots: So the guy cheated, lied about it for years, and now he wants to come clean, by writing a book, and have ME pay for it thereby putting my hard earned honest made money in HIS pocket. So HE can teach ME a life lesson or two while making excuses for his own behavior while suggesting his actions were justified because afterall....everyone does it. What a hoot!

The whole "If you want to be successful, you need to cheat, you need to do steroids, you need to use PED, is already a main concern for youth sports. And while it may be true for some athletes, I can not rationalize, justify, or condone it to my kids or any other kids that I coach.

Perhaps this is a microcosm of society as a whole. People have the overall general attitude that the only way to compete, the only way to get ahead, the only way to improve yourself, is to cheat, lie, and do whatever else you need to do. The rationalization is always easy....hey, they all do it. So I need too also.

I don't care how many do it. If I have to sell out and tell my son that the only way to compete is to take steroids in school, since it's known that some do, then he might as well look to do something else.

I think the overall attitudes shown in this thread are some good examples of why this society is the way it is. It is the "ME" society. You do whatever you need to do to get ahead. You throw others under the bus, you cheat, you lie, and you destroy other peoples lives. The end justifies the means.

Afterall, you will always have people with more miserable lives than you ever could, and they will be more than willing to saddle up alongside a "winner" and get warm fuzzy feelings.

What a shame our society has become.
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« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2013, 08:27:04 AM »

he lied about it...over and over.  He waited to admit the truth to Oprah until _after_ the statute of limitations ran out for perjury (his sworn testimony that he didn't do it), he sued his friends when all they did was tell the actual truth...not to mention all of the less overt pressures he put on everyone around him to ignore the truth....until he finally couldn't bear to see his 13 year old son believe and repeat the lies (conveniently after the statute of limitations of the perjury had passed)

It gets worse and worse, He is using his son feeling bad about things??  

How convenient that he couldn't stand looking in his sons sad eyes anymore the same day that the statute of limitations ran out for perjury??

To me is seems everything this guy does everything for a reason, I wounder if he would have been so generous and such a philanthropist if he wasn't doing so many things he knew at the time to be bad and despicable?
A bit like buying redemption from the roman catholic church in the middle ages  Sad

mvh edward  tongue

Great post!
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« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2013, 10:12:35 AM »

Holy Crap! Talk about some bleeding heart liberals.

BjornBee,
You posted earlier accusing Bluebee of posting stupid stuff just to bait people and get a reaction.  Yet you've ripped a page out of the liberal playbook and resorted to name calling.  So, are you trying to get a reaction...Or, are you really arrogant and naive enough to think you know me well enough to judge me and categorize me based on one opinion I have on one issue?

As for Hamilton's book, I'm not suggesting you put ONE PENNY is his pocket.  I'm sure you're a smart resourceful guy, figure it out...Borrow it from a friend, buy a used copy, better yet...Go to these building we have called libraries and check out a copy!

There's an old saying prosecuting attorneys use when getting people to roll over and testify and people question their value because of their tainted past....They say, "You don't find a lot of swans in the sewer". 
If you truly want to try and fix the problem, the first step is to understand the problem, the only way to completely understand it, is to listen to people who have lived it.  Trust me, plenty of cyclist that went down the road of using PED's were raised in good homes with parents telling them not to use PED's.  The issue really is a little more complicated than simply having Daddy tell little Johnny don't use PED's while growing up! I think it's well documented that kids, especially young adults have a long history of not always taking good advice offered by parents.  Smiley

That being said, I'm going to do what I said I was going to do a number of post ago and bow out of this thread. Really nothing new being said here and the level of discourse is steadily deteriorating.  There really is a lot to be said for listening to ones first instinct, I should have listened to myself.  Smiley

I have bees to go check on and learn about....They have no idea what the Tour De France is, or who's our President!  Lucky little creatures!  grin

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« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2013, 01:22:35 PM »

...if you want to believe you can take an average athlete, give him some EPO and blood transfusions and have him win the Tour 7 times.  I'm afraid you know very little about PED's and even less about cycling.

When I was in high school, my first "research paper" (where you organize on index cards, have your outline and rough draft checked by a teacher, etc) was on the 1984 US Cycling team blood doping scandle.

I worked as a bike mechanic for many years (first in my neighborhood out of my parents garage, and then at bike shops from big to small).

I was never a competitive cyclist (some of my friends were), but I rode a lot (the summer of 86, I dipped my rear wheel in the Atlantic, and my front wheel in the Pacific....with front and rear panniers.  Besides a ferry across the Ohio river, 4330 miles in 2 months).

I know that it was amazing (surprising) that he was able win after the cancer.

This all reminds me of Madona in her mid 80s Time Magazine interview...something like, "I resent that people assume that I slept my way to the top....not because I didn't, but because they think I couldn't have succeeded otherwise."

Lance did what he thought he had to do to accomplish what he wanted to accomplish.  At least give him that much credit.

Quote
Near every cyclist that finished in the top 15 at the tour during this era has either tested positive, been linked to a doping program, or admitted doping.
Yes, the problem is systemic.  The sport hasn't taken any responsibility.  Cycling hasn't been restructured so that promotion and enforcement aren't working together to maximize promotion while minimizing enforcement.
That leaves Lance Armstrong holding the bag.  The fact that his behavior has been generally insulting and awful (given that he eventually admitted it) leaves him no high ground to stand on.

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« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2013, 03:34:25 PM »

Wow, Deknow certainly has the credentials to know cycling.  You dreamed awfully big deknow to cycle from the Atlantic to the Pacific.  Very impressive. applause   My dream would be to make it from Lake Erie to Lake Superior. 

The last time I was on a ferry, it was also crossing the Ohio river.  I was visiting relatives in Ohio and went site seeing in WV for the afternoon.  When I tried to get back to Ohio, I discovered good ole Homeland security had shut down the bridges across the river due to some bomb threat.  So I had to drive down to Sistersville and take the ferry across.  Kinda fun for a change though. 
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JP
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« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2013, 04:40:45 PM »

"Lance did what he thought he had to do to accomplish what he wanted to accomplish.  At least give him that much credit."

Why should he deserve any credit for doping and transfusions?

It gave him an unfair and illegal advantage over those who were going by the rules.

I just can't see giving him credit when there's no credit due.

This is why he was stripped of all of his titles.


...JP
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« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2013, 04:45:25 PM »

JP, sorry, I was unclear.  What I was trying to say was give him enough credit to be responsible for his actions...he wasn't insane, he wasn't being mislead...he did exactly what he wanted to do....he just didn't want to get caught.  Oh well, goes with the territory.



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« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2013, 05:23:38 PM »

Deknow, hate to beat a dead horse but the guy did not come forward until the evidence against him was unequivocal. I could be mistaken, but I believe he's in for more humbling experiences when this is all said and done.

I'll give him this, his crimes were doping and lying and there are far worse crimes a man can commit.

Its just a shame he continually denied the allegations until he was caught.

If he would have manned up the first time there were allegations and changed his ways, his crimes would have been much more forgivable.

Hey, good luck to him, he needs all the luck he can find right now.


...JP
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« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2013, 05:36:18 PM »

Deknow, hate to beat a dead horse but the guy did not come forward until the evidence against him was unequivocal. I could be mistaken, but I believe he's in for more humbling experiences when this is all said and done.

I'll give him this, his crimes were doping and lying and there are far worse crimes a man can commit.

Its just a shame he continually denied the allegations until he was caught.

If he would have manned up the first time there were allegations and changed his ways, his crimes would have been much more forgivable.

Hey, good luck to him, he needs all the luck he can find right now.


...JP


Correct me if I am wrong but didn't he use his lying and doping to embezzle money out of people he was lying to. Which is the same as stealing. He beat the USPS out of 30 million. The same to me as Bernie Madduff [spelling].
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« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2013, 09:09:44 AM »

Good point there Sterling. This thing with Lance is likely just the beginning of his legal problems. He's now having to face the music, definitely wouldn't want to be in his shoes.


...JP
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« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2013, 11:32:52 AM »

estimated net worth of over a 100 mill.!  even if 90% is lost in court those are still some mighty comfy shoes! 
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« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2013, 12:10:11 PM »

JP, I think you are still not understanding me...I'm saying let him live with the consequences and not cut him any excuse.

....I also think it appropriate to take a moment and think about Greg Lemond, who also won the tour a few times, and has taken a strong stance against doping.  Much of the fame that Armstrong achieved was primed by the first American tour winner....Lemond!

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« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2013, 05:08:58 AM »

Everyone was doping.....not true!

Bob Costas was on Anderson Cooper last night talking about Lance Armstrong.  He says everybody of any note in cycling was doping during the Lance Era.  He says the main difference between Lance and the others was Lance would bully and sue anybody who tried to expose his doping. 

So whatís the lesson here?  If you cheat, make sure you donít get caught?  If you cheat, donít bully others because that is worse than cheating?  If you cheat, donít ever admit you cheated because people will never forgive you anyways?  If you donít cheat, you wonít win?  Donít even try, because the world is full of cheaters?  Forget competition and become a bee keeper?     
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