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Author Topic: Lance Armstrong  (Read 5502 times)
BlueBee
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« on: January 18, 2013, 02:12:46 AM »

Well all you Oprah watching bee keepers out there, did you watch the interview with Lance Armstrong last night?  What do you think?
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deknow
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2013, 06:53:33 AM »

He should host a morning show with Elliot Spitzer.
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vmmartin
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 07:48:04 AM »

Just saw a few highlights.  Seems completely insincere and at somewhat disconnected from reality.  He did himself no favors IMO.
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2013, 08:06:28 AM »

Liar liar pants on fire, and talks about himself in the third person  drowning


mvh edward  tongue
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Moots
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2013, 08:08:52 AM »

I've been a recreational cyclist for the last 10 years, something that likely would have never happened if not for Lance Armstrong, and I truly love the sport.  I've been what most would describe as a huge Lance Armstrong fan and have followed both the sport and the Tour closely.  Therefore, I have a much more in depth understanding of the situation than the average sports fan.
Throughout the years of being a Lance fan my opinion has evolved from; "He would never dope" to "It's possible, but I think he's clean", to "I really hope he's clean, but I'm afraid he's not"....To, probably about 3 years ago....."No doubt, HE DOPED!"

Therefore, while I certainly don't excuse or justify what he did...In a lot of ways it's just reality of the culture of the sport.  I never believed Lance was a Saint when I thought he was riding clean, just like I don't think he's the devil now that I know he doped.

He's a HECK of an athlete with an unbelievable drive and focus to win....Some view that as an asset, some view it as a fault....In reality, it's probably a little of both.

Again, not excusing or justifying what he did...But I'm still a fan and like the guy.  I think he got caught up in lie and there was no way out.  In my opinion, while flawed (like all of us)...If you throw Lance's life on a scale, the good outweighs the bad.  
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2013, 08:26:23 AM »

The problem is systemic the way the cycling industry is structured.  Remember the 1984 blood doping of the u.s. Olympic team?

The same folks who were responsible for enforcement of anti doping rules were al's responsible for promoting the sport....get the picture? 
But most offensive is the lying and attacks against those that were seeking truth. 

Deknow
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deknow
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 08:35:13 AM »

He has vast personal fortune, and time.  Perhaps if he wasn't focusing on how to feed his own ego by competing again he would find some way to spend his time and money in a way that could earn him some respectability.

Deknow
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BjornBee
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 09:05:22 AM »

Lance would not of been .....well "lance" without the cheating to get where he got.

If someone lied, cheated, and smashed others along the way of achieving greatness, I could not hold him up and say he is great or respected on any level of my thoughts.

He would not of achieved anything near what he has done, on ANY level, without winning those races. He got there by one way...cheating. I do not dismiss it by suggesting others may have done it also.

Lance would of achieved far less if he would of lost those races. And I can not suggest to my children that cheating is ok, by suggesting lance did other good things along the way. Or that the end justify the means.

Funny thing is that most who actually know the man, do not like him. Egotistical, narcissist, and other words are often used. Some may use terms like "driven", but that does not mean anything. It is the path one chooses while being driven that defines the person.

To suggest a person is a heck of an athlete and driven to win....should be about a person doing the right thing. Would he be the same athlete is not for the doping? Would he of been driven if not for winning the first or second race while cheating?

In my mind, I can not have him achieve superiority over other competitors, while cheating, then suggest he's a heck of an athlete.

In a society that claims "you did not do that on your own" and discrediting hard working people, I find it interesting that so much credit can be given to a cheat, defining him as a great athlete while racking up wins by cheating.

And he certainly is not anyone I will be holding up as an example for my kids to learn from. That is the defining line in how I view this. Would you hold Lance up as an example to your kids? I don't hold 'figures" up for my kids to idolize, but there are entertainers, sports figures, and others in high regard that my kids know about.

Far too many times in our society, we claim to be a passionate group, willing to forgive anyone for anything. We have labeled killers as being a victim of how they were raised. We forgive criminals and suggest it was others peoples fault. And we hold our chests out, and state loud and clear, that we are passionate. we are sympathetic. And no matter what anyone does, we will forgive them if they just say they are sorry. We are all at fault, and without sin, and this suggests that we are all just like Lance, just in other ways. So we must embrace Lance. we must forgive Lance. We are.....Lance!

Problem is, this now breeds a society that does anything, knowing at the end of the day after doing what they do, they can cry a tear, go on a talk show, and have people fall over themselves in seeing who will forgive the cheat first while trying to slide up next to a "winner" while trying to feel good about themselves.

Next we will be calling for Jerry to get out of jail based on the foundation he created, instead of focusing on the lives he destroyed.

Lance is a fraud, cheat, and gets no label from me in thinking he is "driven" or a great athlete. I think he is scum. And that is about the same as most who actually knew him.
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Moots
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 09:22:31 AM »

Wow BjornBee,

Maybe Oprah should have just taken him out back and shot him!  grin
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 09:38:56 AM »

Wow BjornBee,

Maybe Oprah should have just taken him out back and shot him!  grin

I would prefer they shot each other!  Wink
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BlueBee
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 11:05:18 AM »

As a recreational cyclist myself, I hold about the same view as Moots.  Drugs or not, the guy is one heck of a athlete as anybody who’s ever cycled for more than a mile knows.  It’s not like any ole Joe could shoot up with some drugs and achieve that level of performance.  Just doesn’t happen. 

All of society runs on a curve anymore.  CEO regularly cheat and lie, politicians regularly break moral rules, kids are graded on a curve in school, the super rich get out of paying taxes and live by different rules, and even the pious bee keeper have been known to cheat.  My opinion is if everybody else is doing the same thing and they’re all passing the rules at the time (which Lance did) then it’s a fair playing field and Lance won because he was the best of that best in that environment. 
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BjornBee
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 11:27:27 AM »

As a recreational cyclist myself, I hold about the same view as Moots.  Drugs or not, the guy is one heck of a athlete as anybody who’s ever cycled for more than a mile knows.  It’s not like any ole Joe could shoot up with some drugs and achieve that level of performance.  Just doesn’t happen. 

All of society runs on a curve anymore.  CEO regularly cheat and lie, politicians regularly break moral rules, kids are graded on a curve in school, the super rich get out of paying taxes and live by different rules, and even the pious bee keeper have been known to cheat.  My opinion is if everybody else is doing the same thing and they’re all passing the rules at the time (which Lance did) then it’s a fair playing field and Lance won because he was the best of that best in that environment. 


So everyone is s piece of crap like you? everyone is a cheater. Everyone lies? And so that is the message? You should too!

The left IS so proud of you!

But please.....do not insult everyone here by suggesting everyone is like you, or think everyone should be a piece of crap with rationalizations that everyone does it, and that makes it right.

Your insulting for even thinking that.

You are a leftist, and you do not even know it. I actually think you are, and know it, but claim otherwise for positioning of your argument. But I do not think many are being fooled by it.

As was said when Bill was getting hummers in the office......Doesn't everyone cheat?

Now we have....everyone is scum. So you need to be scum also.

You must be so proud.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 11:47:50 AM »

I’m getting this sense of moral superiority coming from the right wing again......

I never said that Lance was a champion of moral fortitude, nor Bill Clinton for that matter, nor a whole host of Republican politicians and CEOs.  What I SAID was: in the cycling competition Lance was passing the legal tests at the time, just like everybody else.  What more do you want to do?  Make everybody pass some kind of a moral lie detector test too before competing? 

Do you pay taxes using the 2012 tax tables or the tax tables from 1983 when taxes were higher?  If you’re playing by today’s rule and paying less does that make you a bad person?  A cheat?  A scum?  I think not, but then again they call me a “leftist” around here.  Rules change over time.   

The rules of life change over time and it’s a little unfair to try to hold people to rules that didn't exist at the time.  Can we think of other examples in American history where today's rule would make our ancestors look pretty amoral? 
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deknow
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 03:14:03 PM »

...except that the rules at the time didn't allow him to do what he did.  If you are pulled over for drunk driving (even if "everyone is doing it"), the question is "are you drunk", not "can I pass a field sobriety test while too drunk to drive".

The regulations don't allow the use of specific drugs and techniques (like blood doping).  They don't (and never did) allow for use of banned substances and practices as long as you don't get caught.  One of the problems with shining brightly is that it attracts a lot of attention.  If you are cheating, you probably should try to lay low.

deknow
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indypartridge
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 03:56:17 PM »

As Lance often noted during his 20 years of denying, he was regularly tested and regularly passed. As suspicions mounted, he was tested more often. He didn't get caught by a blood or urine test, he got caught because his teammates confessed, and implicated him.

The truth is, the art of doping is far, far ahead of available testing, and will continue to be. This isn't a cycling issue, it's across all the spectrum of sport. When an athlete stands to make tens of millions of dollars by having a competitive advantage, there's not much downside. So Lance has a lifetime ban from cycling. He also is worth over $100 million dollars.

Bottom line: what's your reputation worth? Lance, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, etcetera may have tarnished reputations, but are hugely rich.
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Sundog
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2013, 05:51:21 PM »

Bottom line: what's your reputation worth? Lance, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, etcetera may have tarnished reputations, but are hugely rich.

Ah, money...  the Report Card of life!

As anecdote has it, George Bernard Shaw once asked an attractive socialite whether she’d sleep with him for a million pounds. After she answered in the affirmative, he offered her a mere 10 shillings. Outraged, she railed: “What do you take me for? A prostitute?” Shaw reputedly replied: “We’ve already determined that. We’re just haggling over the price.”

Are we not all prostitutes?  Rules are for defining a contest, laws are for people that don't know the difference between right and wrong.  Obviously Lance, and the afore mentioned, understand neither.

Go Wings!   cool  It's Hockey season, eh?
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sterling
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2013, 07:01:34 PM »

Well all you Oprah watching bee keepers out there, did you watch the interview with Lance Armstrong last night?  What do you think?
Reminded me of Slick Willie back about 14 or so years ago. Nether ever did apologise. And Willie got away with it with his confession. And is now the hero of the Democratic Party. So maybe Armstrong will still be the cyclist hero after a few days.
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2013, 07:37:42 PM »

Bottom line: what's your reputation worth? Lance, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, etcetera may have tarnished reputations, but are hugely rich.

Ah, money...  the Report Card of life!

As anecdote has it, George Bernard Shaw once asked an attractive socialite whether she’d sleep with him for a million pounds. After she answered in the affirmative, he offered her a mere 10 shillings. Outraged, she railed: “What do you take me for? A prostitute?” Shaw reputedly replied: “We’ve already determined that. We’re just haggling over the price.”

Are we not all prostitutes?  Rules are for defining a contest, laws are for people that don't know the difference between right and wrong.  Obviously Lance, and the afore mentioned, understand neither.

Go Wings!   cool  It's Hockey season, eh?

Well said, thank you!

Go Sharks!!!

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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2013, 08:33:41 PM »

....all of the doping takes a back seat to suing people who told the truth about what they saw.  When someone starts suing people for telling the truth, there is a line that is crossed.



deknow
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JP
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2013, 12:25:37 AM »

As stated by the president of the International Cycling Union (UCI) Armstrong “deserves to be forgotten!” and this I wholeheartedly agree with.

If he would have admitted wrong doing the first time there were allegations and went clean figuratively/literally I might have a little respect for him, but to fiercely oppose anyone who dared he may have done the deed time and time again and to even have the nerve to oppose one of his teammates' allegations in court?

I watched both interviews and I don't believe he is sincere nor humbled.

I usually don't have a problem forgiving someone for a mess up or two as no one is perfect, but what he did and how he reacted to these allegations throughout the years is unforgivable in my book.


...JP
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