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Author Topic: Lance Armstrong  (Read 4643 times)
BlueBee
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2013, 04:13:41 AM »

I don’t view Lance in the same light as Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, or Mark McGuire.  Those baseball players were CLEARLY doing something different than most of the players and even the casual observer could see that on TV.  They transformed from having the physique of an average Joe to looking like the Hulk.  That doesn’t happen without Steroids.

We’ve had very strict laws against fireworks here in Michigan for years and years.  Anything that left the ground or made a bang was “illegal”.  People would flock to Ohio to buy the illegal stuff (fire crackers, bottle rockets, etc) and bring them back home.   Did that make everybody who celebrated the 4th of July in Michigan with illegal fireworks “bad” people?  Scum?  If so we’re talking about a LOT of Republicans.  LOL!

Deknow and others make a good argument, but I still think Lance was playing by the same rules as nearly everybody else.  When the rules are not enforced (as with the firework laws in MI), they are meaningless.  Those are just CYA “rules” that everybody knows are not intended to be enforced.  To retroactively hold people accountable to such rules is a bit hypocritical IMO.

Ya’ll might find this amusing.  In the 1990s I got up on my high horse (ie beeks sense of high morality) one year and went out to videotape all the illegal activity around me and turn the people in to the police.  Would you believe that they actually shot fireworks AT my car!  Yes, those were the dark days when I was still believed in the Republican non-sense.  Wink       
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BjornBee
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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2013, 07:13:53 AM »

I sometimes get the sense that posts are just made to try to irritate others. And that they are with points so poor, and comments so un-connected, that they make no sense at all.

Yes I found the comments amusing. Amusing, but stupid just the same.  Wink

Everyone was doping.....not true!

Everyone that shot fireworks was republican.....true/untrue? You make the call. for me, I question the broad stroke of the brush. And I think it has less to do with actual facts, and more to do with making jabs. But maybe that is just me.  rolleyes
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2013, 10:17:36 AM »

...the only rules Lance was playing by was "don't get caught".  ...but of course, it doesn't stand out and attract attention to win the tour 7 times...to win the tour with cancer...to play up your celebrity status.  He got caught...and the same set of rules that he had always been working under were finally applied appropriately.

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edward
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2013, 11:55:33 AM »

Yeah, but could/would you point the guy out to your son or daughter and say that's lance armstrong he is a great athlete, he won 7 times  rolleyes

I think not .


mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2013, 12:06:19 PM »

...to any science fiction fans, this is somewhat reminiscent of "Achilles choice" by Larry November and Steven Barnes.
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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2013, 12:16:56 PM »

Yeah, but could/would you point the guy out to your son or daughter and say that's lance armstrong he is a great athlete, he won 7 times  rolleyes


From the Fox News website:
Quote
Armstrong didn't break over the $75 million in lost sponsorship deals, or after being forced to walk away from the Livestrong cancer charity he founded and called his "sixth child." He didn't crack after his lifetime ban from competition.

It was another bit of collateral damage that Armstrong said he wasn't prepared to deal with.

"I saw my son defending me and saying, `That's not true. What you're saying about my dad is not true,"' Armstrong recalled.

"That's when I knew I had to tell him."

Armstrong was near tears at that point, referring to 13-year-old Luke, the oldest of his five children. He blinked, looked away from Winfrey, and with his lip trembling, struggled to compose himself.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/01/19/lance-armstrong-shamed-by-doping-scandal/?test=latestnews#ixzz2IRVObDnU
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Moots
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2013, 09:36:25 AM »

OK...
This is where I get confused!  Why does everyone think being labeled a great athlete equates to being a great person? The two are independent of one another.

Regardless of anyone's opinion on Lance Armstrong, whether he should be shot, jailed, forgiven, forgotten, fined, or deported for his actions...It's ridiculous to try and deny the fact that he was/is a great athlete.

Life isn't always black and white, there are lots of shades of gray.  Why couldn't a father point out Lance as a "GREAT ATHLETE" that won 7 Tours and accomplished some unbelievable things...but made some major mistakes along the way, was dishonest, and did some terrible things to some good people.  Was caught, held accountable, and had to pay a steep price for it.   

Sure, it's not the nice easy storybook fantasy for the kid, but it's reality.  Let them start learning it early, life is complicated. 

Sometimes good people make bad choices and do bad things!  Sometimes bad people do good things. Put Lance in whatever box you want as a person, good or bad....But that answer has nothing to do with what box he belongs in as an athlete.

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edward
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2013, 01:27:40 PM »

It's ridiculous to try and deny the fact that he was/is a great athlete.Why couldn't a father point out Lance as a "GREAT ATHLETE"

I disagree.

He is NOT a great athlete, he is NOT a roll model, maybee an example to show how not behave, an example of bad or the worst kind of sportsmanship!

He is a LAIR , a CHEAT and he stabbed his friends in the back!

Athletes are put up on pedestals, if they get there on there own merits.

We also have a good place for lairs, and cheating,and deceptive people, is called  jail jail  jail


mvh edward  tongue
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BjornBee
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 02:30:05 PM »

It's ridiculous to try and deny the fact that he was/is a great athlete.Why couldn't a father point out Lance as a "GREAT ATHLETE"

I disagree.

He is NOT a great athlete, he is NOT a roll model, maybee an example to show how not behave, an example of bad or the worst kind of sportsmanship!

He is a LAIR , a CHEAT and he stabbed his friends in the back!

Athletes are put up on pedestals, if they get there on there own merits.

We also have a good place for lairs, and cheating,and deceptive people, is called  jail jail  jail


mvh edward  tongue

Edward you fool!  grin You are so....yester year!  Smiley

Character, morals, principles, trustworthiness, and any other positive traits and definitions, are a thing of the past.

We now live on some other persons' dollar. We justify our actions by such things as "The ends justify the means". We excuse ourselves and other by suggesting that everyone cheats, everyone is an adulterer, and everyone is dishonest.

If we need to find excuses beyond that, we blame society as someone is a victim of childhood abuse, or suggest they are a victim of society.

Another tier is the rationalization that we are all without fault. They will say "Have you never driven over the speed limit" or some other minor infraction somehow suggesting that is the same as destroying other people's lives such as Lance did.

I am probably old fashioned. But I still speak to my children about trustworthiness, morals, honestly, and self accountability. And I certainly do not keep those like Lance on a pedestal by suggesting that we should still respect him for being a great athlete while being blind to him as a person.

But call me crazy! I do not see a degree, title or some accomplishment when I look at a person. I do not see a movie star. I do not see a person in hollywood any different than a simple farmer when I shake their hands. I see a person for who they are as a person. What is inside. What they stand for. I respect those with character, values, and morals.

Lance is not anyone I will be holding up to my children for some accomplishment he achieved while cheating.

And I am glad my parents and those around me taught me those ideas. And I wonder about  those that would teach their children anything less.
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Moots
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2013, 05:53:06 PM »

OJ Simpson is a no good lying murdering S.O.B!
That doesn't change the FACT that he was a GREAT running back....Sorry!  Smiley

Again. I think some are confusing apples and oranges. Two different things.

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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 06:16:08 PM »

OJ Simpson is a no good lying murdering S.O.B!
That doesn't change the FACT that he was a GREAT running back....Sorry!  Smiley

Again. I think some are confusing apples and oranges. Two different things.



Why do you keep claiming everyone is in confusion.

Jerry Sandusky did wonderful things. So what? Am I to promote or somehow tell my kids about his positive attributes while ignoring his personal problems because they are two different things?

So your telling me that at some party, when someone says that Jerry is a scumbag, that I should compartmentalize it, and makes sure folks understand what a wonderful person he was and how many folks he helped. Get real!

So nobody can say anything about Lance with also including his riding achievements. Everytime we say anything about Lance, like "What a dirt bag" we need to acknowledge his positive contributions also?

Some say that Hitler had positive qualities also. But I really do not need to go there.

What you want to do is ignore apples, and only discuss oranges. That's fine. I get it. You need to stay positive and for every person saying something about his negative qualities, you feel the need to stand up and praise his good qualities. Good for you.

But why are you the one getting upset pointing the finger at others. If I say he is a piece of crap, then to me he is a piece of crap. Why does that bother you? And if I do not say in reply to someone suggesting he is scum, with a comment like "Yeah, but he was a heck of a rider!" please get over it.

I don't give credit to scumbags by suggesting "Yeah, but he was a great running back, a great bike rider, a great book writer (Hitler). I don't need to add the "but" while placing them any further than the gutter that he (they) now stand.

I find it amusing that after everything had now come out, that you feel the need in your life to actually care whether others give proper credit to his achievements. Perhaps there are other things in life more important than having the need to stand up for a guy like Lance making sure that everyone gives credit where you think it applies. This is your battle line....sticking up for a scumbag and somehow making it your fight to make sure everyone still respects his riding?  rolleyes  Wow!

 
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2013, 06:29:14 PM »

OJ Simpson is a no good lying murdering S.O.B!
That doesn't change the FACT that he was a GREAT running back....Sorry!  Smiley

Again. I think some are confusing apples and oranges. Two different things.



Apples and oranges, grapes, berries and even candy bars make up fruit baskets. If some of the fruit in the basket is rotten then you have to judge the fruit basket as a whole=a bad fruit basket not say, "oh there is a good grape in there".
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edward
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2013, 06:53:50 PM »

Lance Armstrong is as talented as MILLI VANILLI lau


mvh edward  tongue
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BlueBee
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2013, 07:02:08 PM »

All Lance did was take some chemicals during training to try to improve his body and now our pious beeks seem to be comparing that with a murderer and a molester?  Strange. huh

If putting banned substances in your body makes you such a HORRIBLE person for life, I wonder how many beeks, or their kids, have consumed alcohol or drugs as a minor?  Does that now make them a horrible person for life?  Something that can never be forgiven even if they raise 500 million to cure cancer?   It’s like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Speaking of drugs, what about your hero Dubya?  I suppose cocaine is much more forgivable to the conservatives than EPO and testosterone?  What about all the Hollywood drugies?  They're better than Lance too? 

I sure hope the good Lord is not a conservative bee keeper !   
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BjornBee
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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2013, 07:11:13 PM »

OJ Simpson is a no good lying murdering S.O.B!
That doesn't change the FACT that he was a GREAT running back....Sorry!  Smiley

Again. I think some are confusing apples and oranges. Two different things.



Apples and oranges, grapes, berries and even candy bars make up fruit baskets. If some of the fruit in the basket is rotten then you have to judge the fruit basket as a whole=a bad fruit basket not say, "oh there is a good grape in there".

I glad someone is making sense.   lau
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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2013, 07:43:53 PM »

OJ Simpson is a no good lying murdering S.O.B!
That doesn't change the FACT that he was a GREAT running back....Sorry!  Smiley

Again. I think some are confusing apples and oranges. Two different things.



Apples and oranges, grapes, berries and even candy bars make up fruit baskets. If some of the fruit in the basket is rotten then you have to judge the fruit basket as a whole=a bad fruit basket not say, "oh there is a good grape in there".

I glad someone is making sense.   lau

OK....
Let me see if I got this straight, OJ Simpson played in the NFL until 1979 and was considered one of the greatest running backs ever to play the game.   On June 11th of 1994, 15 years into his retirement, he was still considered one of the greatest running backs ever.
However, after murdering two people on June 12th of 1994, even though he hadn't played a snap of football in 15 years, I'm suppose to believe that somehow..."MAGICALLY" he was no longer a great running back.  And this is all because some people put candy bars in fruit baskets!  Smiley

MAKES PERFECT SENSE NOW!  grin

Obviously guys, were going to have to agree to disagree on this one, so I think I'm done on this thread...But it's been fun.

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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2013, 08:05:09 PM »

Moots, you gotta get used to this on the bee forums.  One can never win an argument with the Conservatives no matter how logical your argument is  grin

BTW.... for the record....you are RIGHT.
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Moots
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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2013, 08:20:16 PM »

Moots, you gotta get used to this on the bee forums.  One can never win an argument with the Conservatives no matter how logical your argument is  grin

BTW.... for the record....you are RIGHT.

Blue,
Sorry to disappoint you, but I wasn't trying to "win" an argument.  I was simply sharing my opinion, not trying to change anyones mind.

Secondly, Politically speaking....I'm afraid I'm one of those "evil" Republicans and about as conservative as they come. Sorry!  Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2013, 08:31:23 PM »

LOL.  It would be nice to see more “moderates” become beeks, but I know 99% of all beeks are good ole conservative Republicans.  
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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2013, 09:58:38 PM »

OJ Simpson is a no good lying murdering S.O.B!
That doesn't change the FACT that he was a GREAT running back....Sorry!  Smiley
...but OJ wasn't a GREAT running back _because_ he is a murdering SOB.

Lance's athletic achievements were the _reason_ he did what he did, lied about it, and sued his friends for telling the truth.  What he is praised for was caused (at least in part) by cheating.

deknow
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