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Author Topic: Up up and away  (Read 3640 times)
BlueBee
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« on: January 17, 2013, 03:58:42 PM »

Has any bee keepers noticed that Wall Street has been streaking higher since Obama got re-elected?  You don’t suppose there’s any chance they might know a little more about economics than bee keepers? 

General market is up about 6% in the 3 months since the election.  The automakers are up over 20%.

It’s OK to admit when you are wrong and Obama was right.
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Keith13
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 04:14:33 PM »

my guess would be they are ready for the "free" money that is coming. I may be wrong but the market is falsy inflated right now and flush with funny money. The reality is coming i'm sure.  The real indicator might be the cost of gold.

Keith
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Fox Creek
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 04:26:23 PM »

Is it possible the market is up in spite of Obama? Could it be, if Obama gets out of the way, the economy would be booming?
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 04:39:00 PM »

 i skimmed through some articles to find one that i thought you might understand.  don't take that the wrong way, but i figured you needed something really basic or you wouldn't have asked.  this is so basic that it misses some stuff, but you'll get the idea.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 05:33:54 PM »

Inflation.  They are beating the curve.  With millions of new dollars being printed every month. 
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BjornBee
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 06:08:14 PM »

Has any bee keepers noticed that Wall Street has been streaking higher since Obama got re-elected?  You don’t suppose there’s any chance they might know a little more about economics than bee keepers? 


Why the general diss on all beekeepers? Takes big balls to crap on those you come and visit every day.

So who is "they" you speak of? I know I am one of the "they". I am invested in the market. Glad it is up. Not much more than it was 10 years ago, but I guess that is another story


General market is up about 6% in the 3 months since the election.  The automakers are up over 20%.
 


Markets go up, and markets go down. To bad not everyone makes money as the market changes. Some are just trying to survive. But go ahead, especially for beekeepers out there....crap on them some more!

However.......two things I would hold from investing in with any amount of money you want to keep...airlines, and auto stocks.

Of course to point out that up 20% over a short period, and starting from about near nothing, that 20% is like bragging you increased your wealth 100% this year after losing 95 cents of your last dollar then finding a nickle, and bragging you doubled your money.  rolleyes

It’s OK to admit when you are wrong and Obama was right.


This is what you are hanging your hat on?  laugh  I recently asked what the left can be so proud about, (gas prices, unemplyment, etc.) and now you hang your hat on this. That is rich!

Right about what? Just the auto industry? Or should we consider all the money thrown at other hand picked companies, that went under?

Give it some time. They got a nice boost from the president. But the same model remains that made it a bust to begin with. Just don't tell that to the stock owners that got crapped on and lost everything when the president did what he did.

Only a true liberal could come out now and brag about auto stock prices, after so many got nothing for owning that same stock just not too long ago.

Go ahead. Put your blinder on. rationalize away. Slice and dice as you will. I gave you what you wanted. Have fun. Call us beekeepers idiots, morons, and kooks.
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 06:26:48 PM »

his attachment to the auto bailout is amusing.  never mind that the tax payers lost billions and the original investors were illegally screwed out of their money...

the stock market  is not an indicator of the health of the economy.  it used to be a leading indicator of what business thought the economy would do, but now it's a leading indicator of what business thinks the fed will do. 

as long as the fed pumps, business rides on the illusion of good cash flow.  eventually, inflation and devaluation, overtakes the cash flow and it all comes down.  business know this.  the real way to measure what is going on is to look at expansion and hiring.    if companies are expanding they have real faith in the future.  if they are not, and are just banking money against the future, you know they see the end coming.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
pawallinsr
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 07:11:49 PM »

Way to go Bluebee, stir them up why don't you.
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Peter
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 07:21:25 PM »

They need a good stirring up every once in a while  Smiley  Keeps them from sinking to the bottom  grin
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BlueBee
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 07:23:47 PM »

LOL.  I didn’t think the conservatives would ever admit they were wrong and Obama was right. laugh  

Inflation has averaged well under 3% since Obama took over and we have avoided a 2nd Great Depression.  

The price of gold today is virtually the same as the price of gold 365 days ago.  Gold tracks the fear of inflation.  Low inflation doesn’t bode well for the price of gold.    

Quote
Only a true liberal could come out now and brag about auto stock prices, after so many got nothing for owning that same stock just not too long ago…………and the original investors were illegally screwed out of their money
Why don’t conservatives look up the facts about bankruptcy law and learn that stock holders are the very first group wiped out in a bankruptcy.  Google is your friend and educator.  I’m a little surprised our conservatives don’t know how bankruptcy really works.  I guess that is good in a sense.
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iddee
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 07:38:58 PM »

What was the price of gold Jan. of 2008, and what is it now?

Gas was 1.89 and is now 3.40. Yep, a good example of your3%, all right.

In case you haven't noticed, most of us are in the 2nd great depression. My expenses are more than double what they were at the end of 07, yet my income is up a whopping 16.00 per month.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2013, 08:34:10 PM »

yes, google can be your friend.  you do need to practice with it to find info.
i get it if you don't understand this stuff, but to put it simply, the government stepped in, messed in what should have been a simple bankruptcy, and screwed over the bondholders who should have been paid out of the sale of assets. 

http://www.dailywealth.com/2125/gm-americas-biggest-bankruptcy

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/statement-from-screwed-gm-bondholders#.UPilDqOC-Gk

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/09/gm-auto-industry-personal-finance-guru-insight-obama-bankruptcy.html

and worse, the tax payer, who never should have had any risk at all because tax payer money should never have been used, lost. 

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/08/15/taxpayers-gm-investment-down-25-billion/
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
deknow
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 08:43:40 PM »

Kathy is 100% correct...the bondholders got screwed in a way that makes future investment more difficult.

What I have trouble understanding is how one can talk about markets, and how they go up and down...yet, when someone invests in a house and the market goes down, it is some kind of violation of the physical laws of the universe.  You can lose your money in the stock market.  You can lose it in Vegas...but if you make a bad real estate investment, it is the role of the government (and those that were willing to lend you the money) to "fix" it.  ...because everyone knows that if one makes a killing in real estate, one always gives some of that money the person they bought the property from, right?

deknow
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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 08:45:46 PM »

now for inflation

anyone who shops knows that inflation is not 3%.

http://etfdailynews.com/2012/10/08/what-is-the-real-inflation-rate/

http://moneymorning.com/2012/03/08/steak-hamburger-and-dog-food-how-the-government-lies-about-the-real-inflation-rate/

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/price_clubbed_in_jRGGyS9wKfAKjxAs0bkVnO

and this is how we measure it when we shop.

https://www.aier.org/epi
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BjornBee
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 08:54:55 PM »

Liberals think if you lose 25% of the value of your home, while prices on your everyday goods go up 25%, you are at 0% inflation. They argue that if you were to buy a house, you save 25% and then this "savings" can pay for everything else that went up 25%.

While the smart person who just happens not to buy a home at the rate that you pay for gas or food (like weekly) is smart enough to know that losing 25% of your home value while paying 25% more for everything else, does not equate into a 0% inflation rate. That is fuzzy math.

And that is how some argue that inflation is so low. But anyone actually paying their bills, while NOT living off the government to supply them everything, knows the real story.  Wink

The left must be so proud......
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BjornBee
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 09:12:32 PM »

What was the price of gold Jan. of 2008, and what is it now?

Gas was 1.89 and is now 3.40. Yep, a good example of your3%, all right.

In case you haven't noticed, most of us are in the 2nd great depression. My expenses are more than double what they were at the end of 07, yet my income is up a whopping 16.00 per month.


Don't get to personal iddee. One, it is not worth it. Two, I never met a true liberal that actually cared about the next person. For liberals, cap and trade is not about the environment. Gun control is not about children. Social programs are not about actually helping folks improve their positions. These may be the "stories" they claim, but in everything, it comes down to control.

The fact that you are so far behind, is a reason in their minds of why you should throw it all in, live off the government, and become enslaved to their system. They would actually think you are stupid to try so hard, to want to do it yourself. In some social settings, generation after generation have been taken care of by liberals. They give out just enough to keep their thumbs of oppression from choking them to death, but they really have no lives. These groups are just too stupid to do anything about it.

They can fools others. But I am sure you are too smart for it.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 11:29:24 PM »

iddee this one is for you since you like quoting the price of gasoline so much.



Price of natural gas under Dubya $13 per millionBTU.  Price of natural gas today $3.50
The price has deflated by 75%!!  Good news if you like to keep warm in the winter.

As for tough times in general.  I don’t dispute that a bit.  Tough here too.  I’m just saying Obama deserves some credit for success too.  The stock market has been a roaring success under Obama.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 11:39:17 PM »

Kathy is 100% correct...the bondholders got screwed in a way that makes future investment more difficult.

What I have trouble understanding is how one can talk about markets, and how they go up and down...yet, when someone invests in a house and the market goes down, it is some kind of violation of the physical laws of the universe.  You can lose your money in the stock market.  You can lose it in Vegas...but if you make a bad real estate investment, it is the role of the government (and those that were willing to lend you the money) to "fix" it.  ...because everyone knows that if one makes a killing in real estate, one always gives some of that money the person they bought the property from, right?  Thank you Mr Obama for not feeding the sharks!

deknow

Good post in general Deknow

But KathyP isn't even close to 100% correct about the bondholders and BjornBee is 0% wrong about stock holders getting unfairly wiped out.  GM bonds had a "junk" rating YEARS before Bush killed the auto business.  Bonds aren't classified as "junk" status for no reason!  There is a very good chance when you buy "junk" you can end up loosing capital.  That is exactly what happened.  And, oh by the way, the speculators (yes SPECULATORS) who were the real holders of those bonds figured the good ole Republicans would give them a giant % gainer by paying off those JUNK bonds at face value.

Very good points about Realestate Deknow.  I suspect the reason the Gov really can't afford to have it drop is because it would take the banks with it and the whole economy after that.    
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BlueBee
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2013, 01:14:47 AM »

Oooops, even us moderates make mistakes from time to time.  Somehow my fingers typed “BjornBee is 0% wrong” with his assertion that STOCKHOLDERS unfairly got wiped out in the GM bankruptcy.  LOL…that didn’t’ come out exactly right, but what the heck I like BjornBee and my fingers didn't want to diss him.  We just have different perspectives when it comes to Obama. 

If I go into politics, my fellow beeks are going to support one of their own aren’t they?
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BjornBee
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2013, 06:39:40 AM »


If I go into politics, my fellow beeks are going to support one of their own aren’t they?


Heck no!

That is what is wrong with the country. If you are union....you are supposed to vote one way. If you are black, you are to vote one way. If you are religious, you are to vote one way. if you are a women, you are to vote one way.

Why would beekeepers all vote because someone else was a beekeeper? Placing people in boxes because of fear or because of false promises, is part of the problem. I understand the "mob" mentality. People naturally define themselves into groups, oftentimes feeling superior to others for the mere fact of a title or association. Bikers grow bigger balls and their pride goes up if the group masses in herds and ride in endless circles on weekends. Throw on a label such as "master beekeeper" and some think they are better than others.

Personally, I don't look at such items as "beekeeper" and think for the fact they keep bees, that they are any more of a person than the next.

Yes, I find that some on the left are constantly labeling folks. Whether it be class warfare, race warfare, or any other defining point, they need to constantly apply some caste system to everything they do. Academia promotes it.

I would much rather vote for a person based on merit, values, record, etc. I know I am the minority in that thought process. Oh crap,,,,I just labeled myself.  Wink

First black president.....first real black president. The left is good at voting for labels.  grin

Meanwhile, behind the scenes, the party who ran on the whole "war on women" can not even pick a women to hold a position in the cabinet.

That is how it works. But give the left credit....it works in fooling most voters.

The left must be so proud.  Wink
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