Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
July 25, 2014, 07:44:21 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: ATTENTION ALL NEW MEMBERS
PLEASE READ THIS OR YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE DELETED - CLICK HERE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat(1)  

Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?  (Read 3394 times)
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« on: January 14, 2013, 12:25:22 PM »

Please share your knowledge of thermodynamics.
Cheers,
Drew

p.s. If anyone knows any entomologists or physicist/beeks could you please get opinion on thread. I'm dying a slow and painful death here Smiley


SAVE THE BEES ! Smiley
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:25:48 PM by Maryland Beekeeper » Logged
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 03:09:22 PM »

From other forum:

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 12, 2013, 10:15:37 PM
Got any pics of condensation in a honeybee hive ?

Reply:
They make any sense. Idea is avoid condensation, not to make it.
bees make condensation regardless ... this is about where it happens
if it occurs inside the insulated space below the bees you get 10% heat back

Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #34 on: Today at 01:51:47 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify

DING ! DING ! DING ! WINNER ! WINNER ! CHICKEN DINNER ! applause

Also, (and more importantly), if it occurs in insulated space below bee's, you have dry B's !
Cheers,
Drew
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 05:04:25 PM by Maryland Beekeeper » Logged
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 03:57:50 PM »

From other forum:

No question should ever be considered unreasonable - the only unreasonable aspect of this thread are the responses from ... and his parrot, who cannot get their heads around a perfectly sound enquiry.

Warm air rises, and cold air descends - therefore the formation of a thermocline is always possible. But I would suggest that the existence of a thermocline within a beehive is highly unlikely ... for 2 reasons.

The first is the activity of the bees themselves. Wherever there is active circulation (often due to the cluster being located towards one side), there is unlikely to be stratification of thermal layers.

The second is that a vortex is created near the entrance to any occupied hive, due to the movement of air through a narrow space. (Clearly this would not apply where OMFs are fitted.) Such vortices would also 'stir the air'.

The only time I could envisage a thermocline being created would be when the bees are very tightly and centrally clustered, and when the upper part of the hive is 100% sealed. But the breaking of cluster would soon mix the air, thus destroying any temporary stratification.

At least, that's how I see events within the hive. But I could always be wrong !


Thermoclines are more usually associated with large outdoor expanses of water, where the water is heated (by the sun) from above. Warm water rises and the cooler water gradually migrates downwards (just check your domestic hot water tank) - thus creating the thermocline. I have often experienced these when diving in the Med - it's like moving through an invisible curtain between an oven and a fridge. Very strange.

Having said that - an immersion heater does heats the water from below, and a thermocline is most certainly created within a hot water tank (but it's a tank which isn't stirred), so it's far from being a stupid issue to raise.
Me:
I to am a scuba diver, and sky. My contention would be...... ready for it ? The atmosphere is static ! remember combs now, can you visualize how the heat would disallow condensation above thermocline ? Smile The honeybee hive is natures perfect distillery ! Smile
_Me
Of course it could be wishful thinking but, if you go back, re-read Langsroth, Huber, I'm working thru Swammerdam now, the clues are there. They saw the thing, just, like all since, missed the significance. They didn't understand thermocline
Me
Go, look @ your honeybee organism, again for the first time,........ think upside down moonshine still,..... think hermit crab.....can you see it now ? Smile


Logged
Finski
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3928

Location: Finland


« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 04:22:54 PM »

.
OH LORD!
Logged

.
Language barrier NOT included
derekm
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 500

Location: glow in the dark Hampshire UK


« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 05:27:42 PM »

work on bee thermal behaviour usually assumes thin wooden boxes not insulated ones.
I have found very little research and almost none that is well done on insulated environments .
Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 05:45:24 PM »

I know, can't find anything either. Could it be this has been completely missed ? I have emails out to mags and ent. depts. In any case, come spring, I have the necessary apparatus to test the theory. As they say, a pic is worth a thousand words.
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4126

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 06:14:52 PM »

Good Lord double time  angel angel

Another good example of a thermocline would be a swimming pool in the summer with a solar cover.  As long as the pump isn’t running (to stir up the water), you end up with a layer of hot water at the surface that feels like a hot tub.  However if you sink too low in the water you freeze your butt off (at least in Michigan) as the water rapidly gets cold.  You see this in lakes to some extent too. 

I think your poster in reply #2 hit the nail on the head on this one.   If the bees are mixing the air then your thermocline idea is screwed!  If the bees aren’t mixing the air, then your bees are screwed due to asphyxiation. 

Drew would you concede that mixing of air by the bees will wreck a thermocline?
Logged
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 06:29:16 PM »

Fill bowl with water......blow. Remember combs(hot/dry radiators), assume heat w/ no air movement. Do you have to flap your arms around to generate heat ? Try yoga  Smiley Apis would not
asphyxiate in a tree Smiley There is exchange occurring, under control, through thermocline. You could call it breathing ! IMHO of course


p.s. BlueBee, You are a keeper, I shall let you take line, I have tightened my drag a hair, but I will tire you, then I shall have you ! Smiley
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:14:55 PM by Maryland Beekeeper » Logged
derekm
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 500

Location: glow in the dark Hampshire UK


« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 07:08:36 PM »

there s a lot going on even without the bees mixing.
Air at the insulated walls is cooling and descending. warm moist air is rising from the bees.
water vapour is condensing releasing heat.
Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 07:25:15 PM »

 I do not disagree, my contention is, that function is @ the complete mercy of the organism. Except if you vent the roof of course Sad I would add that I believe the colony could be fanning quiet substantially above and the effect on the thermocline below would be like that of blowing into a bowl of water.

Another way to say, Apis can, boil, the moisture down/out.


p.s. I feel obliged to add a word of caution @ this juncture for the benefit of any following. I do not recommend you run right out and throw a garbage bag and old sleeping bag on your hive/shell. Also, if ya happen to know any thermodynamics professors.... ?  Help !  Smiley

p.s. Although it gets tricky I suppose it could be to advantage to point out the 3D aspect to be expected of suspected thermocline @ this point. Although false it could help to see it as a sphere with the cluster @ center.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 01:58:52 AM by Maryland Beekeeper » Logged
Finski
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3928

Location: Finland


« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 01:42:51 AM »

Fill bowl with water......blow. Remember combs(hot/dry radiators), assume heat w/ no air movement. Do you have to flap your arms around to generate heat ? Try yoga  Smiley Apis would not
asphyxiate in a tree Smiley There is exchange occurring, under control, through thermocline. You could call it breathing ! IMHO of course


p.s. BlueBee, You are a keeper, I shall let you take line, I have tightened my drag a hair, but I will tire you, then I shall have you ! Smiley

Is beekeeping really that difficult?

.
Logged

.
Language barrier NOT included
derekm
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 500

Location: glow in the dark Hampshire UK


« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 04:39:48 AM »

I do not disagree, my contention is, that function is @ the complete mercy of the organism...

you need to eat this elephant one bite at a time
Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 09:46:53 AM »

Well said sir  ! Yes, it sounds like the implications are starting to dawn on you.
p.s. Keep going, there is light
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 10:02:13 AM by Maryland Beekeeper » Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4126

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2013, 09:51:36 AM »

I’m a little anxious to hear what your next invention is going to be. Smiley
Logged
Jim 134
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2213


Location: Hinsdale, New Hampshire 03451 USA


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2013, 10:08:20 AM »

Is beekeeping really that difficult?

 rolleyes  For some may bee



          BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley         
Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2013, 10:17:05 AM »

from other forum:
?
Ok, so where does the moisture start to condense in a high density (100g/litre) polystyrene hive, sealed at the top?
me
Below thermocline, if your hive was upside down aquarium, under certain conditions, you would see a horizontal plane,...... defined, by a line of condensation.
Logged
Finski
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3928

Location: Finland


« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2013, 11:31:51 AM »


Ok, so where does the moisture start to condense in a high density (100g/litre) polystyrene hive, sealed at the top?


I have used polystyrene boxes 25 years.  System is different than in wooden hives.

Wood sucks the condensed water inside. So the wood is more or less moist during winter. Ply may suck too 30% water.

We do not  "seal" hives here on top.  There is just cover on box.

Condensation happens in coldest surfaces. So inner cover must have best insulation that condensation does not happen there.


If the colony has too much space, the water condensates on unoccupied frames. It generates mould.
Usually condensation happens in the box corners.

Condensation is usual in side the hive. It does not kill hives. Too moisture however makes bees sick.
Keep the hive slanting forwards and water drills off from hive.


Mouldy hive means that the colony has too much space  and the heat of cluster does not keep the hive warm enough.

Logged

.
Language barrier NOT included
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2013, 11:49:06 AM »

Thank you Finski that is helpful.
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4126

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2013, 05:21:34 PM »

How about forgetting the themocline and sticking some disposable diapers over you bees heads?  They use a highly absorbent polymer to soak up moisture.  This might just be the Cat's meow you're looking for. 

Before moisture:


After moisture:

Logged
Maryland Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 275

Location: Columbia, Maryland, U.S.A.

Nature does nothing uselessly. Aristotle


« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2013, 05:46:10 PM »

 clues ?  :

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPM4fVQCSMAehNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZjczMG83BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=124b3gprg/EXP=1358320204/**http%3a//jeb.biologists.org/content/206/2/353.full

http://chopwoodcarrywaterplantseeds.blogspot.se/2012/06/hive-condensation.html


http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4897560653858276&pid=15.1

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7iUm4fVQB1cAdQRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MzU1YXZnBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=12bu5brfh/EXP=1358320038/**http%3a//www.beebehavior.com/infrared_camera_pictures.php

I believe that one infra red pic depicts a winter cluster, that air is not moving. Or, better, only moving within its own color. The thermal layers are  visable, the red holes are the difference in temp between out and in. I believe this colony is quiet warm and dry both. Can you see how no moisture could condense in there ? Equally important, no vertical heat loss because no air loss ?   (false, but suits our purpose here).
Cheers,
Drew
Sorry u have 2 cut and paste.
p.s. Remember you are looking @ 2D slice.
p.s.s. I don't know anything about that pic, but it does match perfectly how I see things, a couple more like it, and it will be time to begin new post in equip. sec. Thermohive:Construction Smiley
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 10:59:17 PM by Maryland Beekeeper » Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.352 seconds with 22 queries.

Google visited last this page Today at 04:08:10 AM
anything