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Author Topic: Treatment free  (Read 4468 times)
edward
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« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2013, 04:30:02 PM »

what time of year do you dribble the acid

In the fall when there is no more brood left in the hive, this is important beecause the last brood cells are crammed full of mites, it can bee beneficial removing the last frame of capt brood, and lots of mites.

mvh edward  tongue
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edward
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« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2013, 04:40:21 PM »

I asked why? - Because ordinary Englishman cannot do according good advice. He must do it with own way.Canada accepted the Varroa Group advices last year, 10 years later than Europe. Why, - who knows. America wants to do its own researches and they do not want to know about EU Varroa Group results.  When guys here advice "do nothing", all say HIP HURRAY and no one ask why

 grin It´s the same here in Sweden, maybe we can invent a better wheel  Undecided rolleyes grin lau

Hmmmm is a round wheel the best construction, I think we need to gather a comity to discuss the best way to tackle this idea, don't wait up this could take a while  Brian  beat a dead horse

mvh edward  tongue
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Finski
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« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2013, 04:50:37 PM »


20-25ml small hive
25-30ml normal hive
30-35ml large hive


mvh edward  tongue

your dosage advices are too small. They are not from EU Varroa Group

It is one box hive 40 ml and to two box hive 50 ml

to smaller hives 4 ml/frames gap

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edward
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« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2013, 05:02:56 PM »

20-25ml small hive
25-30ml normal hive
30-35ml large hive
your dosage advices are too small. They are not from EU Varroa Group It is one box hive 40 ml and to two box hive 50 ml to smaller hives 4 ml/frames gap

I took them from the official Swedish beekeepers beekeeping site and books on sicknesses, parasites, pests in beehives parts of witch have been translated from finish books.

I stand by my numbers till the Swedish beekeeping society revises them.

mvh edward  tongue
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BlueBee
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« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2013, 05:56:44 PM »

Thank you Edward and Finski, that was some useful advice with some explanations behind them too.  applause
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edward
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« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2013, 06:07:03 PM »

Don't forget to use acid proof gloves and safety eye wear. police

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Finski
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« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2013, 06:14:17 PM »


I stand by my numbers till the Swedish beekeeping society revises them.

mvh edward  tongue

DO IT!
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« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2013, 06:34:36 PM »

Actually that 10lb (4.5kg) box of Oxalic acid is for bleaching some hardwood floors I’m rehabbing.  I am familiar with the need for protection when working with the stuff.  I guess it attacks the kidneys or something and can cause precipitation of stones in the human body.  My brother had some kidney stones and they were extremely painful!  I treat the stuff with great respect and the concentrations in bleaching floors is MUCH higher than the recipe you guys have provided for the bees.

Like I’ve said, right now I just rely on basic things like drone culling (and…OK…luck) to deal with the mites.  If they do get out of hand at some point, I would like to have more tools available to deal with them.  Thanks again for the info.

Now let me ask for your opinions about oxalic acid vaporizers.  Is that method better or worse for killing mites?  

To me, it seems like dribbling would be MUCH safer to the bee keeper and the acid concentrations in dribbling are pretty low, that is what I find more appealing.    
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edward
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« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2013, 06:56:44 PM »

Now let me ask for your opinions about oxalic acid vaporizers.  Is that method better or worse for killing mites? To me, it seems like dribbling would be MUCH safer to the bee keeper and the acid concentrations in dribbling are pretty low, that is what I find more appealing.

I haven't met anyone that recommends vaporization because of the need to use a gas mask + it take along time to treat a whole bee yard.

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edward
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« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2013, 07:00:00 PM »

I stand by my numbers till the Swedish beekeeping society revises them.
DO IT!

Because it works with the recommended dosage levels I don't think we need to change the dosage at this time.

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Finski
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« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2013, 04:11:27 AM »



Because it works with the recommended dosage levels I don't think we need to change the dosage at this time.

mvh edward  tongue


I found an original research results of European Union Varroa Group

Oxalic acid treatment by trickling against Varroadestructor: recommendationsfor use in central Europe
 andunder temperate climateconditions  J.D. Charrière, A. Imdorf (2002)
 Last modification: 10.01.2007

The Swish use 2,8% OA instead of many other countries 3,5%.  Italy uses 4,2%

The volume is the same. Its duty is to make bees dirty and keep the acid contacted to mites enough long time.

The original recipe is http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en

30 ml to small hives
40 ml to normal hives
50 ml to large hives ( = 2 box)

Maximum 4 ml per frame gap and to 2 box hives 5 ml

I have talked personally with our Seppo Korpela what this means and he sais that Switzerland has lower percentage but in tests it gives almost same results. He was in EU varroa group as a researcher.


In Finland measures has bees the same 10 years. But something is happening now. Varroa has become more dangerous than 10 years ago.
It is said that assistant viruses are more lethal than 10 years ago. Lots of hives have died for varroa during last 3 years in very experienced beekeepers' yards.  I have treated my hives 25 years. First year it  was 1987 a swarm. Stuff was Perizin and it is used still whne researcher want to know how many living mites the hive still have.

Mite drop after treatment is difficult because dead mites are in empty comb cells after 5 months.

Oxalic acid alone is not enough to save hives. Late summer treatment with thymol or with formic acid is more inportant to save winter bees.
When these treatments are not successful, OA gives the final hit on mites and advantage is to bee seen next autumn.

But you see the results, when you give OA but you cannot see, how many living mites you have over winter.  You may get 10 mites, 500 mites or 1000 mites.  As guys say, varroa drop before treatment does not tell what will happen.


Canada is very experienced in Formic acid treatments but they have met heavy losses with mites. Reason is that treatment is not allways as successful as promised 96%. It is sometimes 80% or 70% and it is too much.  Mite doubles itself in a month.


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« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 04:59:11 AM by Finski » Logged

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RHBee
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« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2013, 08:37:02 AM »

Formic acid treatment was very hard on my bee population this last fall. The major difficulty was timing treatment with the recommended temperature range.  I was looking for something softer. It appears that oxalic acid is the ticket. If I understand all that I have read it would seen that trickling is best in fall, when broodless, and vaporization in spring over a three week time spread.
Is this a correct statement?
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Ray
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« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2013, 09:15:47 AM »

Formic acid treatment was very hard on my bee population this last fall. The major difficulty was timing treatment with the recommended temperature range.  I was looking for something softer. It appears that oxalic acid is the ticket. If I understand all that I have read it would seen that trickling is best in fall, when broodless, and vaporization in spring over a three week time spread.
Is this a correct statement?

I have never done trickle, only vaporization.   It is my understanding that trickling more than one time can do damage to the bees,  where as vaporization can be done up to 3 times.   I say "up to"  because depending upon the situation,  less than 3 can be effective.   Back when I treated,  I found 1 fall/spring vaporization sufficient.  The key to OA is applying when there is no to very little brood as it is not effective against mites in capped cells.
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Finski
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« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2013, 09:28:48 AM »


   It is my understanding that trickling more than one time can do damage to the bees, 

There is no need to do 2 trickling inside short time.

But that knowledge "only one treatment" is old knowledge.


Many in Finland do one treatment in October and another in March after cleansing flight.


Trickling has been used in Europe 15 - 10 years. It is well known what it makes to hives what is does not do.

Beliefs of persons are another thing. No researches can change them.

If an adult man is afraid of using 0.1 g digital balance, how can we help him?

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« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2013, 09:44:49 AM »


There is no need to do 2 trickling inside short time.

But that knowledge "only one treatment" is old knowledge.


Many in Finland do one treatment in October and another in March after cleansing flight.


That is what I was referring to,  more than 1 treatment in a short period of time.   ie. poorly trickling or when bees aren't clustered and not getting the expected results.
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Finski
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« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2013, 01:00:49 PM »


That is what I was referring to,  more than 1 treatment in a short period of time.   ie. poorly trickling or when bees aren't clustered and not getting the expected results.

In Finland all are warned about this very carefully.  Bigger danger is that guys give a milder dosage and it is not effective.

Like my friend said: "I put allways half what is recommended" and he was in troubles.
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