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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Condensation in an observation hive
« on: January 11, 2013, 12:55:51 AM »
Anyone notice condensation occurs @ defined horizontal boundary layer halfway down glass ?
Cheers,
Drew

Offline edward

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 03:17:20 AM »
Our beekeeping clubs observation hive gets some condensation when the public forget to close the insulation shutters.

mvh edward  :-P

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 03:33:55 AM »
Indoors or out ? Got a good scientific experiment for them. Condensation in hive now ? Describe. No condensation ? attach 12" transparent tube to entrance outdoors, wait 24 hours, observe tube.
Cheers,
Drew

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2013, 06:48:51 AM »
I have never seen it on my OB. At what temperature does it happen. is it indoors or outside?
Jim
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Offline Finski

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2013, 06:59:57 AM »
.
My hive area has now about -10C. In that temp condensation water freezes inside the hive and makes snow inside.
It depends how long cold spel lasts and how long it gathers snow inside the hive.
When mild weather comes, the snow melts inside and drills onto bottom. It freezes onto bottom or drills out.


Inner cover must have a good inslutation that the condensation happens to corners and onto side walls.
If the condensation happens over frames, it makes wet boath bees and frames.

This has nothing scientic. This has know so many decades. You see it with bare yes when the inner cover sucks water.


It is same what happens in a car when respiration moisture condensates onto windows

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Offline edward

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 07:51:39 AM »
out doors, in the fall, in the wintertime I have moved the bees to a normal poly-hive.

mvh edward  :-P

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 09:54:59 AM »
Ah ha ! Perfect Finski ! :) (Thought there was thingy clapping?) Perhaps we are getting close ? Ok.... Finski, if you were to add more insulation to that hive, top and extend down sides say 6"-12" , remove in 24 hours, what observation do you predict upon removal ? What does this tell about hive atmosphere  ?
Drew

p.s.  u are doing reverse so to speak
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 05:19:05 PM by Maryland Beekeeper »

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 10:32:25 AM »
I drilled three vents on the very top and cut holes in the curtain to match them.  I put #7 hardware cloth on them so I can trickle some pollen in if I need to.  This took care of the condensation.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesobservationhives.htm#pictures
You can see two of them here.  I added the third after this picture, so I could put pollen in without it landing in the feeder.
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/ObservationHiveCurtain.JPG
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline Finski

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 10:39:30 AM »
Ah ha ! Perfect Finski ! :) (Thought there was thingy clapping?) Perhaps we are getting close ? OK.... Finski, if you were to add more insulation to that hive, top and extend down sides say 6"-12" (across glass horizontal), remove in 24 hours, what observation do you predict upon removal ? What does this tell about hive atmosphere  ?
Drew

I use 4 cm thick polystyrene hives in winter. As inner cover I have a 9 mm thick wooden panel box and on there 70 mm foam plastic matres piece (recycled).  Wood parts are too from recycled material. Those are over summer too. This is so called "respirating structure". It let moisture to go into loft.

I like this structure because bees cannot bite the wood and I can clean it with flame.

When I put 30 mm thick polystyrene board over hive, it consended water droplets. I wondered why. They I measured the thickness of side wall and realized that inner cover was colder than sidewalls. Construction board has not so good insulation value as polystyrene hive.

If I use inch thick wooden board as inner cover, it works in summer, but in cold weathers it starts to condensate water and it will be very wet and takes blue mold.

.

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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2013, 10:41:32 AM »
.........Oh boy :) Now I'm all mixed up :) I'm thinking regular hive + transparent + outdoors , Finski - your hive ?  

p.s. and airtight :)

Offline Finski

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 02:06:22 PM »
.........Oh boy :) Now I'm all mixed up :) I'm thinking regular hive + transparent + outdoors , Finski - your hive ?  

p.s. and airtight :)

My hives have solid bottom. Now I make new bottoms so that they slant forwards. The front is 4 cm high and back is 1 cm high.
Then I have 15 mm hole in front wall. Moisture moves out via this and bees get air when main entrance is blocked.

The inner cover is not airtight because I open it to trickle my bees.

Hive winter well in open air, better than in some cellar or under snow.

.Just now winter air on my hives is about -10C to -15C. Not bad- It is a common weather 3 months.

More important is the spring when bees start to make brood. Then warm hive is a big advantage.

I have had this system 30 years and I am not going to change it.

In have heated my hives 8 springs with electrict heating. It is 2 months when bees start brooding up to summer.
It gives extra boost.
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But you have in Maryland really warm. You need not to be worried about winter.

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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 03:51:34 PM »
Finksi, Do you have a pic of that whole observation hive ?

Offline Finski

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2013, 03:53:21 PM »
Finksi, Do you have a pic of that whole observation hive ?
No I don't
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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 05:23:23 PM »
I mistook your pic for one of a hive :) oops.. but no matter, it is what you said that was an important clue I think. If you refer back to my question, could you, seal your hive airtight, add insulation, and by this, force condensation to occur only @ level below cluster ?

Offline derekm

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2013, 09:15:51 AM »
I mistook your pic for one of a hive :) oops.. but no matter, it is what you said that was an important clue I think. If you refer back to my question, could you, seal your hive airtight, add insulation, and by this, force condensation to occur only @ level below cluster ?

in short yes..
Condensation takes place where the air  at the dew point temperature. In an insulated container wih an open bottom with a heat source at the top of the cavitiy, you will get a  temperature gradient. At the point where heat losses allow the wall or air temperature to reach the dew point you will get condensation.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2013, 02:31:54 PM »
@ this point may I suggest we a adjourn to ongoing thread, "Thermocline in Honeybeehive" ?

Offline Finski

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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2013, 11:15:37 PM »
Got any pics of condensation in a  honeybee hive ?

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2013, 02:50:30 AM »
Yeah, I got lots, but they're not observation hives  :)  See the 'top vs bottom' thread  :-D

What might be a cool experiment for next winter would be to make a nuc out of plexiglass and cover it in a foam shell.  They you could see the condensation on all sides when you took off the foam shell.  However I'm not too concerned what is happening on the sides.  My concern is the condensation that might occur over the bees heads.  :(  

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2013, 03:37:01 AM »
Want to meet @ the thermocline thread ? :)