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Author Topic: Homemade foundation ?  (Read 6217 times)

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2013, 07:23:34 PM »
Seems to me that you have to think outside the box if Drew is trying to make cell impressions in a sheet that is 4 FEET long by 18 inches.  (122cm x 46cm).  It’s going to be hard to fit something that big through any conventional machine. 

If the screen idea doesn’t work, why not just stack plastic pierco foundation into your titanic frames?  That’s what I do and it works fine.  It would be nice if it was one solid sheet of plastic from top to bottom, but life isn’t perfect.

If you want to make life complicated, maybe you take about 6 sheets of pierco plastic foundation and cover them with fiberglass resin (and fiberglass) to make the necessary “mold” for making foundation.  Once a giant mold is made, press in, or melt wax on the mold to make your foundation (one sided).  Then either try to press another mold on top of that to make cells on the other side or ‘glue’ two sheets of single sided cells together. 

Offline little john

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2013, 08:33:11 PM »
[ Bees do not see a flat sheet as the core of comb.  When bees build natural comb, there it no flat core.   Do you think if it was a easy as proving a flat sheet of wax that people would be spending $1000+ on foundation mills?

Respectfully suggest that you read:
http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/Low%20cost%20Foundation%20_21_.pdf

a research study which reported that:

"Observations made during the study indicated a preference by the bees to use thin non-
embossed wax sheets to make new combs rather than thick non-embossed wax sheets or
embossed foundation."


LJ

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 08:52:55 PM »
"In a world of darkness he bringith light ! " :)
Thanks bud

p.s. hand on my heart, if I had to do it, I was going to use glass  ;)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2013, 09:08:36 PM »

"Observations made during the study indicated a preference by the bees to use thin non-
embossed wax sheets to make new combs rather than thick non-embossed wax sheets or
embossed foundation."


LJ

You would think that if this is true there is a down side somewhere.
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Offline Robo

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2013, 09:27:44 PM »
[ Bees do not see a flat sheet as the core of comb.  When bees build natural comb, there it no flat core.   Do you think if it was a easy as proving a flat sheet of wax that people would be spending $1000+ on foundation mills?

Respectfully suggest that you read:
http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/Low%20cost%20Foundation%20_21_.pdf

a research study which reported that:

"Observations made during the study indicated a preference by the bees to use thin non-
embossed wax sheets to make new combs rather than thick non-embossed wax sheets or
embossed foundation."


LJ

OK,  but I can only go by my experience and I am still a little skeptical of their findings.  First of all they put two frames of un-embossed wax on either side of the brood nest.  Bees have a natural inclination to keep the brood nest together,  not split it up with two solid frames between it.  I would be a little less skeptical if they swapped frame placement around between the four colonies.  Say two with foundation first and then non-embossed.   

It is like taking a starving dog and putting chicken right next to him and beef 4 foot away and claiming dogs like chicken over beef because he ate the chicken first.

Secondly, I not impressed by the one picture they show.  Two non-embossed frames on each side of the brood nest of 4 hives means they had 16 non-embossed frames to choose from at that is the best?   Looks to me as if the bees built comb in the void and attached it to the wax sheet.  Sort of like you see in a cut out against a wall.  Especially if you look at the bottom left corner of the frame, sure looks like the comb protrudes out and that perhaps there is some bee passage between the comb and wax sheet.  Also I'm skeptical the way the comb just abruptly ends at the right side.  With foundation or foundationless, the comb will taper down to where they would be starting new comb.

I will remain skeptical until I see better examples.

Take a look at the 2nd video from the bottom JP & Emil Remove Mammoth Bee Hive 35' Up  and tell me there isn't a resemblance of the comb.
http://beevac.com/videos/
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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2013, 12:08:49 AM »
Perhaps the key might not rest with embossing but include vibrations ? Communication between sides of individual combs @ formation ? Wax to thick=no good ?

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2013, 10:43:13 AM »
>-have you come up against any size limitations in managing foundation-less comb ?

I have done it on Dadant Deeps but with a support in the center.  I've done it on deeps with no support.  Most of mine are currently on mediums.

> My hope is to facilitate management of combs I am finding in cutouts, (4'+)

How are you going to put a 4 foot peice of comb in a frame?

>-would you expect foundation to accelerate cell/comb construction ?

No.  Foundation does NOT accelearte comb concstruction.

>Tell me why they use foundation.

Because the spacing of the barriers in the hive force them to.  If you give them a choice they will build their own comb and ignore the foundation.  Also foundation is not flat.  It has angles in the bottom of the cells.

I see no reason to make your own foundation when no foundation works better than anything you will give them.  If you use foundation it will be contaminated with chemicals.  If you use foundation you will force them to build something other than what they really want for cell size.  If you use foundation you will slow them down.  If you make your own foundation you will spend an inordinant amount of time making something they don't need.
Michael Bush
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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2013, 10:52:40 AM »
 very carefully :) B's and all ! :) Quickly, gently, and easily,(I hope), relative to the task, :) Stay tuned ! I am interested in your comparisons of comb growth rate by types. Even more so, should they happen to include, screen, and hardware cloth splashed w/ little beeswax, among them :)

p.s. would have been clearer for me to say, "Facilitate management of the same sized combs ...." but I stand by above :)
p.s.s Also interested to know what happens if you seal up the top of that OB hive :) and then : What happens if you quarter the height(thus quadruple surface area of ceiling). But that is for the other thread :)
P.s.s.s Robo - As will I :)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 01:29:33 PM by Maryland Beekeeper »

Offline Acebird

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2013, 12:41:40 PM »
If you use foundation you will slow them down.  If you make your own foundation you will spend an inordinant amount of time making something they don't need.

I don't doubt that what you say is true but for someone like myself using foundation allows me to be more of a clutts.  It could just be me but I think other newbies might have that same trait.  I think newbies are in the hive more than they should so a stronger comb could be to their advantage, initially.  Foundation is not an advantage to the bees it is an advantage to maybe some beekeepers.

I plan on trying some natural comb in the future.  Where do you feel the easiest frame placement is?  In the honey supers or the brood chamber?
Never thought I would do it!

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2013, 03:18:54 PM »
I don’t doubt it either, but I can report this is not an absolute rule or bee keeping either.  I had a grow box full of half sized mating frames I wanted to get combed up for mating nucs.  A grow box is a box you fill with half frames and put over a full sized colony of bees. 

Half of those frames were waxed peirco foundation and half were homemade foundationless frames with a triangular starter bar at the top of the frame.  The frames was put into the grow box in alternating order.  F – FL – F – FL – F – FL – etc. 

The bees combed up every pierco mini frame before touching the foundationless frames.  I was surprised myself.  The bees can surprise you from time to time.  At other times I’ve had them absolutely refuse to build on the PF plastic frames.  Having adequate wax on your substrate can make a big difference. 

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2013, 03:47:55 PM »
BlueBee, interesting observations, I wonder:
- if the preference for, "F", was related to the angle of starter ?
- something else but I forgot now :) TBC

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2013, 06:08:52 AM »
When are we going to get to see a photo of this infamous titanic sized frame of yours?

It’s easy to post photos from a photobucket album by simply clicking the [img] tag and pasting that into a post.

We need to see this Frankenstein monster you're building!

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2013, 08:20:43 AM »
photobucket ? :) ...... Kidding, I've heard of it @ least. Work on it today. Frames look good, several versions, can't wait to see what the B's make of 'em.  Oh yea, be interested to hear your reply to ? I am about to post on other thread ;)

Offline Jim 134

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2013, 08:03:49 AM »
If you use foundation you will slow them down.  If you make your own foundation you will spend an inordinant amount of time making something they don't need.

I don't doubt that what you say is true but for someone like myself using foundation allows me to be more of a clutts.  It could just be me but I think other newbies might have that same trait.  I think newbies are in the hive more than they should so a stronger comb could be to their advantage, initially.  Foundation is not an advantage to the bees it is an advantage to maybe some beekeepers.

I plan on trying some natural comb in the future.  Where do you feel the easiest frame placement is?  In the honey supers or the brood chamber?


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Acebird........

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Offline Robo

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2013, 08:38:30 AM »
I don't doubt that what you say is true but for someone like myself using foundation allows me to be more of a clutts.  It could just be me but I think other newbies might have that same trait.  I think newbies are in the hive more than they should so a stronger comb could be to their advantage, initially.  Foundation is not an advantage to the bees it is an advantage to maybe some beekeepers.

I totally agree, new beekeepers are completely overwhelmed by what they have gotten into and although using foundation isn't foolproof, I believe it is more forgiving.

Quote
I plan on trying some natural comb in the future.  Where do you feel the easiest frame placement is?  In the honey supers or the brood chamber?

The best place is in the brood nest between two combs of brood which will act as a limiting guide.  If you attempt to do it in a honey super,  there is a high percentage chance that they will either overdraw existing comb into the space by making 2" or thinker comb,  or build new wide comb if you give them pace to do so (multiple empty foundationless frames).    They will build brood cells just so deep,  but will build honey cells much deeper (less work/wax to make a frame of really deep cells vs. 2 frames of "normal" depth cells)
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline Acebird

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2013, 10:01:42 AM »
That makes perfect sense Robo but now when is it safe here in Upstate to put empty frames in the brood nest?  Is there a risk of chilling brood doing this in early spring?

I have put blown out frames in the supers and got away with it.  Was I just lucky?
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Offline Robo

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2013, 03:23:02 PM »
Ya, you need to be careful about chilling brood by breaking up the brood nest.  However,  foundationless is much more forgiving than foundation.  Foundation creates a physical block between the two combs, where as foundation just leaves a gap that the bees can easily span.   As long as the population of bees is large enough to occupy the gap between the two brood frames,  you will be OK.  Just remember,  the weather has to be warm enough for them to fly and forage before they will build comb anyway,  so another reason not to rush.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline Acebird

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2013, 03:46:17 PM »
Yeah, but they forage like crazy during the day not at night when it gets ding dang cold in the spring.

To me this is a tricky one because the hive is expanding so there is going to be brood in the combs and the bees will not leave the brood to huddle into an empty space even if there were a lot of bees that could fill it.  Unless there are lots and lots of bees.  A real judgement call.
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Offline edward

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2013, 04:34:26 PM »
You also need young bees to make comb, beecause it is those bees that sweat wax, no young bees, no wax  ;)

mvh edward  :-P

Offline saperica

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Re: Homemade foundation ?
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2013, 05:52:03 AM »
i have found this site http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2006/february/beeswaxmould.htm whit detail instruction for DIY wax foundation press.

 

anything