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Author Topic: Treatment free  (Read 4525 times)
BlueBee
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« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2013, 03:53:24 AM »

LOL, Finski, you got me on that one!   

The sky is pretty black here right now too.   
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« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2013, 07:59:44 AM »

Itís probably a good thing my bees donít read the forums. laugh  Iíve got more bees than I know what to do with and I donít treat,.... 

Ah, a true politician. You say much, without really saying anything.

Got more bees than you know what to do with, means what? That could be one colony or 25 colonies. That could mean you simply are ignorant and are scratching your head trying to determine what to do with your bees. Like with having no plans for the coming season. All this could be true whether you treat or not.

Did you say "I do not treat, and have never lost a hive?" No you did not. Of course then you could just say as others "I've lost bees, but not due to mites"  Wink That seems popular.

So what does your statement really say? It may imply for some that you do not treat, you have never lost a colony, and your bees have multiplied to astronomical levels that you have bees coming out your ears.

But we both know you never said that. Good play indeed!

For myself.........I do not treat either, or at least in the matter of chemical treatments I do not treat. But have I lost a colony to mites from time to time.....absolutely! I lose perhaps 10-15% of my colonies for various problems, like mites, every year. I guess I could rationalize that it was for other reasons, then I could sell more bees claiming to have the ultimate survivor line of mite survival bees, or some magical way of keeping bees in a certain hive that has completely handled mites 100%. But that would be a lie.

But we do not need to worry about you making any false statements. Your statement is subjective, and could be read many different ways. You are a seasoned debater.  Wink  You know how to mince your words. Unfortunately, they have no real meaning for those actually knowing what they read.  Wink

The bad thing is, others will read such comments, see others doing nothing with their bees while claiming wild success, then do nothing, and will lose bees. The message is clear.....the whole problem with mites was a fabrication of evil types out to sell you something. There is NO mite problems. Never was, never will be. There were never mites to begin with. Just do nothing with your bees, and you too will have success.

Wish I would of thought of that earlier.  Wink

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« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2013, 11:37:01 AM »

my 2013 experiment :
I have melted down the comb from cutouts and pulled aluminum window screen through it to provide base foundation from which they can decide cell size

I think you will be disappointed with the results.    Bees do not draw comb off of flat surfaces by choice.   Watch bees draw comb and you will see they work down.   I would expect you will get all kinds of wacky comb being drawn between the two sheets of screen.   You would be much better served with just starter strips,  bees don't need a foundation,  they now how to build comb  tongue
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BlueBee
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« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2013, 04:19:14 PM »

But do they know how to build 4' long jumbo comb without crisscrossing the box if he went foundationless!  What are the odds of 4' x 18" foundationless comb staying in one piece without some serious mechanical support like metal screen?  I've watched bees hanging down from the top of a frame and building comb too.  It sure doesn't look natural to build comb on flat surfaces, but they do it by the millions on conventional foundation all the time.  The only difference I see here is his foundation isn't imprinted with cells.  Heck I have do idea rather it will work or not, but my pure guess is yes.  I got a 50 : 50 chance of being right on this one grin
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BlueBee
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« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2013, 04:34:29 PM »

Bjorn, are you going to vote for me as a politician?  OK, let me clarify a little.  I have about 30 hives at the moment.  I do loose hives from time to time due to loss of a queen, robbing, freezing, and operator error.  I also have mites but I have not found any deadouts with any significant number of dead mites on the floor.  I have large cell and small cell colonies but I am not claiming any magic in the cell sizes.  Like you I have losses I would estimate at about 10% to 15% a year.  No magic here.  All I was claiming is that I have a fairly simple treatment free regime Iíve been following and so far it has been enough to deal with MY mites in MY climate.  The original poster (from Michigan) was asking about ideas for treatment free, and thatís what I gave him.  From there on it was the typical assertions that I donít know what Iím talking about.  
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BlueBee
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« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2013, 04:40:58 PM »

If itís hopeless for me and my bees ( laugh laugh laugh), then how much Oxalic acid do I need to dump in each hive?  I got a 10lb (4.5kg) box of Oxalic acid in the mail today. 




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Finski
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« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2013, 05:50:51 PM »

.
For 30 hives  mix 1 kg sugar + 1 kg warm water +75 g OA

then trickle to each bee filled frame seam 4 ml that mixture and 5 ml to 2 boxe hive seams.

To one box hive 40 ml and to 2 box hive 50 ml

Mites drop down during next month.

Do the job when temp is 0C - +5C
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« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2013, 07:28:12 PM »

The surface is not flat. It would be more correct to say,"With this method the surface is in the control of the beekeeper."
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« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2013, 08:25:32 PM »

But do they know how to build 4' long jumbo comb without crisscrossing the box if he went foundationless! 
No, it is unnatural for them build comb that way.   Instinct tells them it will not be strong.
Quote
What are the odds of 4' x 18" foundationless comb staying in one piece without some serious mechanical support like metal screen?

0% chance.   Anything over ~12" wide they will start to curve for strength.  You would have to constantly cut the curve and straighten as they build.  They will not build comb off the screen as a core.  The only way to do it foundationless would be with horizontal support wires that they will draw over.

Quote
  I've watched bees hanging down from the top of a frame and building comb too.  It sure doesn't look natural to build comb on flat surfaces, but they do it by the millions on conventional foundation all the time.  The only difference I see here is his foundation isn't imprinted with cells.
The imprints are key,  it tricks them into believe that it the start of comb.   Do you really think folks would be spending $1000+ dollar on foundation mills if it was as simple as giving them sheets of wax?  Duragilt is the prime example,  the bees will never build good comb on the core if the wax coating (with impressions) is removed.

Quote
Heck I have do idea rather it will work or not, but my pure guess is yes.  I got a 50 : 50 chance of being right on this one grin

Ya, just as much as I have a 50:50 chance of winning the next mega lottery because I guess I will  tongue
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« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2013, 08:27:20 PM »

The surface is not flat. It would be more correct to say,"With this method the surface is in the control of the beekeeper."

And the cell size pattern you are giving them is?
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« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2013, 09:26:36 PM »


A question, I am persuaded by your post, I must now address. I had been fishing for that post for a while, figured it would come sooner, yours was the first rational, experienced address I have come across on the matter. Of course I will still try to rough a couple up w/ sandpaper and try, but I guess I have a foundation mold to purchase Smiley
Thanks,
Drew
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« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2013, 09:36:15 PM »

By all means try it, there is no better way to learn than first hand.   I just would not suggest investing a lot of time and resources into making a lot of it.   As far as molds go,  I made many attempts at building molds and all ended in disappointment.   Pick up a copy of Keeping Bees by John Vivian he discusses building a foundation mold.  Of course reading his explanation makes it sound like a piece of cake, but my attempts proved otherwise.    The book is actually a pretty good read.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2013, 01:22:33 AM »

Thanks for the dribbling recipe Finski.

Do you know how Oxalic acid works to kill the mites?  I understand it was classified as an insecticide by our government at one point, but why does it kill bugs?  Does it eat away at their skeleton, plug up their breathing pores, mess with their digestive system?  What makes Oxalic acid bad for the mites?

Do you use warm water for your dribbling or does it matter? 
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edward
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« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2013, 08:05:03 AM »

Do you know how Oxalic acid works to kill the mites?  I understand it was classified as an insecticide by our government at one point, but why does it kill bugs?  Does it eat away at their skeleton, plug up their breathing pores, mess with their digestive system?  What makes Oxalic acid bad for the mites?Do you use warm water for your dribbling or does it matter?

It dissolves the soft tissue parts of the mite, eyes mouth, joints and so on, Its important to get the dosage right or it won't have the right effect.
To weak and it wont kill the mites, to strong and you will blind and harm the bees.
The best way to make sure you get it right is to make a large batch, 30 to 50 hives worth, its cheep so the excess will not cost much.
Warm it to hive temperature so you don't chill the bees unnecessarily, a thermos or a cooler with plastic bottles filled with hot water will keep it warm under transportation to bee yards.
Make sure the hive is brood less or you'll miss the mites.
Don't over do it, treat once correctly.

mvh edward  tongue
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BlueBee
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« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2013, 03:01:18 PM »

Thanks Edward.  So itís a mechanical destruction of the mites, I like it. evil   Why do you mix sugar into the solution?  It seems if you do that, the bees will eat some of it and that might not be good for the bees internally.  Why not just mix Oxalic acid with water and dribble that?

Edward what time of year do you dribble the acid?  Do you use Finski's proportions too?
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Finski
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« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2013, 03:14:14 PM »

Thanks Edward.  So itís a mechanical destruction of the mites, I like it. evil   Why do you mix sugar into the solution?  It seems if you do that, the bees will eat some of it and that might not be good for the bees internally.  Why not just mix Oxalic acid with water and dribble that?

Edward what time of year do you dribble the acid?  Do you use Finski's proportions too?


That oxalic dripling method was invented 1997 by Italian bee professor Nanetti.

Then during years 1998-2006 European Varroa Group tested the best varroa killing methods.

Why why why and why.............. I have written perhaps 7-8 years here why, and it has not much brough results among these "do nothing guys".

Same in England. Guys bever read original research papers what varroa group published. Guys intevented at once they own recipes (like ypou) and it based on nothing-

I asked why? - Because ordinary Englishman cannot do according good advice. He must do it with own way.

My opinion is that those guys are not able to read and understand English. I must for example advice to to weigh the acid: By a accurate digital balance! 10 dollars!

Canada accepted the Varroa Group advices last year, 10 years later than Europe.

Why, - who knows. America wants to do its own researches and they do not want to know about EU Varroa Group results.


 When guys here advice "do nothing", all say HIP HURRAY and no one ask why

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« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2013, 03:26:38 PM »

Guys intevented at once they own recipes (like ypou) and it based on nothing-

Cool down Finski, I didn't invent any recipes for Oxalic acid (yet), I was planning on using yours if I experiment.  Do you have a short answer to WHY you add sugar to your recipe? 

I'm curious about the sugar aspect of this recipe because it suggests the bees need to consume the Oxalic acid to be effective?  Doesn't it seem that way to you?  if not, then why add sugar?
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bemused
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« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2013, 03:31:18 PM »

I think the problem with trying to go treatment free is two fold:

1. if you have a small number of hives you're quite likely to end up with no bees. I read a study from Sweden that said the mortality rate for none treated hives in the first year was 75%. Also I seem to remember reading on Randy Oliver's blog that he lost the majority of his hives when he went treatment free.

2. Even if you have a population of resistant bees if queens from those hives breed with none resistance drones you may end up with a non resistant queen again.

I suspect that you have more chance going down the non treatment route the more hives you have. With fewer hives you'll struggle to sustain the method.

Good luck, going treatment free is possible but it isn't a easy route.
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Finski
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« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2013, 03:35:49 PM »



Cool down Finski, I didn't invent any recipes for Oxalic acid (yet), I was planning on using yours if I experiment.  Do you have a short answer to WHY you add sugar to your recipe?  




Syrup makes bees dirty. Bees try to clean themselves and rub the syrup everywhere onto their body surface. I have seen it how they do it.
Even couple of days later you may see small droplets of syrup on bees wings. In cluster bees spread the acid syrup quite soon to each other.

Bees do not lick acid syrup with their tongue. Otherwise it will vanish in few hours.

There is difference if syrup has 40% sugar. The result is worse than with 50%.  60% is too stiff and does not spreads so easily.

Here are the main results from the big research
http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/04435/index.html?lang=en

Canada: http://manitobabee.org/hive/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/2011_recs_Feb15_final1.pdf

MORE http://www.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/menzel/rademacher.html

.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 03:46:20 PM by Finski » Logged

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edward
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« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2013, 04:16:47 PM »

Why do you mix sugar into the solution?  It seems if you do that, the bees will eat some of it and that might not be good for the bees internally.  Why not just mix Oxalic acid with water and dribble that?Edward what time of year do you dribble the acid?  Do you use Finski's proportions too?

Iīm a bit ashamed to say I don't know  rolleyes

My guess would bee that it makes them groom one an other spreading it throughout the hive.

Our local beekeeping club buys it and we have a sour old fart that mixes large batches, so the mixture is right. We give it without cost to members from 1 to 200+ hives.

 We have just gone through the first wave of varoa six years ago with heavy losses due to small wrongly mixed batches and people beeing ostriches sticking the heads in the sand and pretending nothing was wrong and not treating with death and destruction for theirīs and their neighbors bees.

The lazy ones have replaced their bees and let them die again and now given up  Wink

The beekeepers that are left have been dwindling in numbers but things are turning around and we have 11 wannabees registered to the new bee school in the spring, We haven't advertised the course yet  grin so things are looking up  Wink

3.2%  75gram Oxalic acid+1liter water+1kg sugar = 1.66liter = to 50 hives (shelf life two weeks) 30-40oC warm
mix to liquid drip over the rows of bees, on the bees, not empty frames
20-25ml small hive
25-30ml normal hive
30-35ml large hive

Try not to get it on wooden hive parts
acid in the water! not water in acid!!!

The sour old guy is really a nice guy that helps all beekeepers to look after their bees, this is important that we all treat our bees so we keep the mite count down, and we all will have hive full of honey and healthy bees  bee

mvh edward  tongue
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