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Author Topic: What IS the real problem, then?  (Read 2435 times)
luvin honey
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« on: December 17, 2012, 10:26:17 AM »

I'm not going to do a Bjorn-style thread where I only allow people to agree with me. Just not very helpful. I'd like to think adults could have an actual conversation without getting hostile or insulting, that we could possibly even try to listen to what each other has to say.


Many people in America do not like to hear about gun control after the latest in a series of mass shootings. They say guns aren't the problem. I'm genuinely interested in what you think the problem is, then.

At the risk of sounding snotty, I'll add that it would be helpful to have actual anecdotal evidence, or even facts to back up your arguments. For example, "loose women with big mouths" is not much of an argument to explain the level of gun violence we have in America.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 10:43:10 AM »

First, let me interject a bit since you brought my name into it.

There are three threads I started recently. One questioned in a round bout way, why the originator of a thread could make demands on all others members and decide what is allowed and not allowed to be posted on a thread. And then dictate the conversation by closing the thread.

The other two went as far as making those demands up front, versus waiting until someone said something I did not like, and then locking the thread in some "If you don't say what I want, then I'm taking my ball and going home" type decision.

The fact that most have gone along with such demands is very interesting. I personally do not think any person should be able to start a thread, then make such demands, and lock the thread at the first sight of what he defines as bickering, or the topic does not follow the course that one decides it should.

I think if you start a thread, then your responsibility as the thread creator ends there. The conversation should naturally progress to where the members take it, staying within the confines of the forum rules. That of course is my opinion, and may differs from others in control of the forum.

But if one is allowed to demand, dictate, and close a forum when someone says something they don't like, is off topic, or not what they want to hear, then perhaps disclosing it up front is a good thing.

Now back to the topic at hand.....
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luvin honey
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 10:53:53 AM »

I'm sorry, Bjorn. I understood you were trying to be humorous in your other threads, but I thought you also intended to have an agreement-only thread. Thank you for correcting me gently Smiley

Back to the topic, though, I've been hearing mental health and mental health funding coming up regularly. I'm glad to hear it but also interested why it's coming up this time around. I don't remember hearing it after previous mass shootings, but perhaps I've just forgotten.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 11:01:42 AM »

How about a reverse question.......why does anybody think banning guns WILL make this all go away.

Some points......and questions:

Countries that have strict gun laws still have these type crimes.

The government can not stop illegal drugs being smuggled, why do they think a new law taking away legally owned guns, will keep guns out of the hands of a few who want to kill so badly?

Our country banned alcohol and we all know where that went. Do you really think that there would be no illegal gun smuggling?

On a personal note.....and perhaps a point many take serious....The president called, several times, half of all Americans the "enemy".  

The government could not control alcohol, can not control drugs, but some think they can control guns, while thinking we all can live in a Utopian society void of nuts, evil, or killings. It happens in all countries. With and without gun laws stricter than our laws already on the books.

Those who want automatic weapons will have them. Even when we had a ban, anybody going to a gun show could find out how to make a single shot into full auto in about 30 seconds and a twenty dollar bill.

Instead of me having to defend my right to keep whatever gun I want, how about the other side proving that by infringing upon my rights, that things would be better? Since we do not own "evil" and mass murder, even though the left thinks we do (and wants you to think so also), show me why you think taking away guns from law abiding citizens turns that into some pipe dream of a false Utopian society, while getting warm fuzzy feelings thinking you are doing something of never having this happen again.

It really does amaze me that some think that this can all be "boxed" in a neat little corner, and corrected by finding an answer by asking "what IS the problem?'. The reason people kill others goes back to the beginning of mankind. And the reason are so many, it is not even possible to answer those questions.
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 11:12:54 AM »

Back to the topic, though, I've been hearing mental health and mental health funding coming up regularly. I'm glad to hear it but also interested why it's coming up this time around. I don't remember hearing it after previous mass shootings, but perhaps I've just forgotten.

Are we a society that locks up mentally ill patients, or one that does not? One option keeps a certain amount of mental patients where they can be helped, and the other lets them intertwine with society. If we choose to allow mentally ill folks to run around, (and I am not saying we should or should not) then we also pay the price when one goes as far as the one this past weekend. I am not even sure what the mental status of the shooter was.

Why are you hearing about mental funding at this time? Follow the money!

Some will threaten the gun folks, then after awhile will settle for some huge amount of money being thrown to the mental (professional) people, whoever they may be. I'll put money on that.

Sad part is that some did predict that emptying the mental homes would increase the chances of this happening. So we cut the funding of state homes, put people on the streets, and saved some money. Now people are dying, and the money once thought saved, will be spent. A vicious cycle.

Could all the money in the world stopped this....probably not. But some will claim it would have. Want to guess who makes these claims?

Always follow the money!
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2012, 11:18:05 AM »

http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother
http://qz.com/37069/the-deadliest-school-massacre-in-us-history-was-in-1927-why-its-aftermath-matters-now/
http://www.facebook.com/mikehuckabee/posts/10151182144272869

i have posted those 3 links because between them,  i think they lay out where we are.  we can have gun control.  we can have knife control.  we can have all kinds of new laws.  until we deal with the underlying issues, there is no solution.  new gun legislation lets the legislators pat themselves on the back and say "we did something"...and then later " well, we tried".

it is interesting that most of the problems in our society were caused by the same people who now cry out for gun laws to protect them from the problems they caused.

Quote
Sad part is that some did predict that emptying the mental homes would increase the chances of this happening. So we cut the funding of state homes, put people on the streets, and saved some money. Now people are dying, and the money once thought saved, will be spent. A vicious cycle.


states went along with the idea because of the money, but the call for mainstreaming, community managements, and "rights', had nothing to do with the money. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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luvin honey
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 11:34:30 AM »

An interesting perspective from an NRA member:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nra-member-sen-manchin-says-newtown-shooting-open-141440511--election.html
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BjornBee
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 11:39:12 AM »

Good stuff kathy.

I see the following happening.....

1) Calls for new gun laws.

2) A new program to help the government to monitor website searches.

3) More money for the mental health professionals. Not to help patients.  lau But to pay for studies, set up boards, and about any red tape BS you could think of.

4) A new Czar

5) A new multi-billion dollar government agency of some type.

6) A new understanding to foreign terrorists that dead children is far more damaging than a bomb on a train. I have said before...you want to bring this country to a grinding halt? Send in 50 terrorists. Each has an assigned location scattered around the country. Each has an assigned week. Then every week, one terrorist goes into a school, or a loaded school bus, and kills as many children as they can. Nobody knows where the next weeks attack would be. Parents would not send their kids to school. Schools would be in lock down. The amount of resources and money spend escorting bus' and having police standing at every door to a school, would make anything else pale in comparison.

The president yesterday said that "we clearly have NOT done enough to protect our children". Other congressmen stated that "we need to make sure that this NEVER happens again".

So what things can be done to make sure this never happens again?

I don't think you can make that assumption.

On a side note, a convicted felon killed two police officers last night in Kansas. We have a law against felons carrying guns. I guess he didn't listen to the law enough.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 11:42:36 AM »

I'm still waiting to hear what the problem is. Kathy alluded to mental health. Why does this keep happening? I didn't bring up gun control. I'm asking a genuine question? What is going wrong with people that they want to take out a bunch of innocent civilians before killing themselves?
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Keith13
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 11:45:14 AM »

if I am correct Columbine occured during the last assault weapons ban. no amount of laws will stop a killer intent on killing.

The worst school massacre in history was by a nut job but he used bombs, The MSM is not mentioning that, I wonder why?

The aurora D-bag used a gun but his whole apartment was rigged with explosives. Had he not had a gun would he then have used  explosives to kill everyone at the movies that night?

Keith
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Keith13
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 11:58:49 AM »

I'm still waiting to hear what the problem is. Kathy alluded to mental health. Why does this keep happening? I didn't bring up gun control. I'm asking a genuine question? What is going wrong with people that they want to take out a bunch of innocent civilians before killing themselves?

I believe these are little people who never mattered to anyone. They never accomplished anything, never have been recognized for anything, just exist in this world. These are little people that never had to work toward anything, always got the trophy because they were on the team but contributed nothing. These are the nerds, the rejects, the outer fringe, of society call them what you want. Is there a mental issue yes probably but it’s more social awkwardness than illness

A horrible act of violence will cement their name in history and they know that. These are little cowards that attack innocence where there is no chance of failure. Then when they are done they kill themselves in yet another act of cowardice
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luvin honey
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 12:00:25 PM »

if I am correct Columbine occured during the last assault weapons ban. no amount of laws will stop a killer intent on killing.

The worst school massacre in history was by a nut job but he used bombs, The MSM is not mentioning that, I wonder why?

The aurora D-bag used a gun but his whole apartment was rigged with explosives. Had he not had a gun would he then have used  explosives to kill everyone at the movies that night?

Keith
Keith, I read about that bombing in the very first online article about the shooting. It's not hidden.

Still waiting to hear about the root cause, not all the other ways a person can mass kill.
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 12:03:09 PM »

Quote
What is going wrong with people that they want to take out a bunch of innocent civilians before killing themselves?

almost all of these people had known mental health issues.  add to unstable thinking the knowledge that they get 24/7 press coverage for what they did and you can see some magical thinking starting up.  it's suicide with a big splash.  "i won't be forgotten".  

Quote
The worst school massacre in history was by a nut job but he used bombs,

yeah,  assault weapons ban won't make a bit of difference.  the VT shooting was done with semi-auto hand guns.  they'll go after those too.  they'll go after clip and magazine capacity because none of them understand how quickly you can swap out.

BUT...they'll feel good and when the next disaster happens, gun or not, they'll say "we tried".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 12:04:39 PM »


Quote
Still waiting to hear about the root cause, not all the other ways a person can mass kill.

i think most of the root causes are in those links i posted.  didn't want to do a long post when others had written it far better than i could have.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 12:06:59 PM »

I'm still waiting to hear what the problem is. Kathy alluded to mental health. Why does this keep happening? I didn't bring up gun control. I'm asking a genuine question? What is going wrong with people that they want to take out a bunch of innocent civilians before killing themselves?

What more do you want?

How could anybody skin a dog alive? How could a mother shake her baby to death? How could someone get off raping a five year old? How could anybody walk into a Amish school and kill all girls and let the boys go?

I think you have mental issues, and pure evil. That evil might include dreams of being famous. That evil may include "paying back" society for something they felt ripped off about?

We are humans. With that, you get a wide range of possibilities. Nobody can put a finger on it, although some will try to pinpoint certain issues.

Asking why someone takes another persons life is a question many have asked for thousands of years. And you think you are going to find the answer by asking that on a bee forum? Good luck with that.

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luvin honey
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2012, 12:15:35 PM »

I somewhat agree.

It would be great if the killer's name was mentioned ONCE, and then never spoken again. The media reports, so let them report, and then let us not even remember the killer's name.

Sorry, kathy, I didn't get to your links yet.

Bjorn, people on a bee forum have no problem saying what the problem ISN'T. Surely it's not that much of a stretch to suggest what it is.
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 12:31:18 PM »



Bjorn, people on a bee forum have no problem saying what the problem ISN'T. Surely it's not that much of a stretch to suggest what it is.

What is this. because I can show that gun control does not stop these issues, that you translate that into expecting me to be able to pinpoint why folks kill each other.

Hatred, mental illness, religious nuts, bigotry, racism, greed, the list is endless of why folks kill.

I'm just saying that taking MY gun away, does not eliminate what I just listed.

Your asking a bogus question. You certainly watch news. You have access to more information than a bunch of beekeepers.

So tell me......what do hear is the reason why folks do the things I listed?

And to be clear....this past weekends killer did not kill 26 humans for the mere fact that he found a gun and was left with no other option. The gun did not make him do it.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2012, 12:44:22 PM »

I don't watch the news--don't have a TV. But I do read.

I genuinely do not understand it. I understand possibly being in the depths of depression so great a person would kill themselves. I don't understand whatsoever what drives a person to take out a bunch of people while doing so, no matter the method or tool.
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2012, 01:10:13 PM »

Timothy McVeigh
DIDN'T USE A GUN
He killed 168 people
19 of them were under the age of 6
He injured 680 innocent people
DO YOU REALLY THINK
that we should ban fertilizer
how about diesel fuel
maybe we should just ban rental box trucks
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2012, 01:14:05 PM »

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/associated-press-story-believe-it-or-not-mass-killings-are-not-on-the-rise-they-are-on-the-decline/

interesting AP story
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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