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Author Topic: So where is the help?  (Read 2187 times)
BjornBee
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« on: December 16, 2012, 05:24:08 PM »

In light of the new regulations in Florida which basically keep beekeepers from doing much in extracting bee colonies with a whole list of fees and restrictions, here are some folks in dire need. Local beekeeper willing to help out....no! Bee exterminator willing to help out....I doubt it.

http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/lee/zip/3481023668.html

Local beekeeper to be blamed for allowing his bees to swarm....probably coming soon.

What a sad situation for those needing help. And what crap a few have inflicted on others in protecting their turf in the name of protecting the safety of others from those nasty beekeepers.

This is one situation I hope someone in Florida is taking note of, to document the reality of the recent new laws on the books.

No more beekeepers willing to do this, get bees, and help out a couple in need.

And so it goes.
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 05:48:14 PM »

same problem here in oregon.  i'm not doing any more removals unless it's old farm buildings. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BlueBee
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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 05:50:48 PM »

I had the impression from Sawdustmaker that the State of Florida was taking bee keeping regulations away from the local authorities and that was a good thing?  What are they doing down there now?
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BjornBee
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2012, 06:44:10 PM »

I had the impression from Sawdustmaker that the State of Florida was taking bee keeping regulations away from the local authorities and that was a good thing?  What are they doing down there now?

Who said anything about local authorities.

That means nothing when the beloved Jerry Hayes, to which nobody had the guts to say anything bad about, has sided with the pest control folks in the state, redefining a state wide law requiring beekeepers to be trained, licensed, bonded, and regulated to go out and do an extraction.

Basically if your not a qualified and certified pest control agent for the state of Florida, you can kiss any possibility of an extraction goodbye. And they have made it very clear that huge fines will be thrown at anybody not licensed to do bee removals.

And you can listen to all the pest control folks suggest that this was needed to "protect" the homeowner from ruthless beekeepers ripping folks off. But all one needs to do is follow the money. That is what it's all about.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 08:14:43 PM by BjornBee » Logged

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iddee
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 07:04:33 PM »

This may help.

http://www.beekeepingforums.com/threads/8418-a-reply-from-Mr-Page?p=171231#post171231
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BjornBee
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2012, 08:24:35 PM »

Here is an article that is a bit clearer.

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/sep/16/collier-lee-bee-removal-experts-state-regulations/

You must remember.....the law was fine for many years. With beekeepers doing extractions and not a problem to speak of. Then, some interpreted the law a bit different, got the leading state apiarist to support the pest control folks, and now extractions are off limits.

While a "limited" certification has been mentioned, but as the article states, the pest control folks want full pest control status to be obtained by any beekeeper wanting to go out and do a cut-out. Why? Up till now, no problems. And any overblown hyped fluff of a problem could probably be grounded by some type "limited" program. But the pest control folks want full blown pest control certification for all beekeepers wanting to do an extraction. They know that it is costly, and will limit those beekeepers to doing this type of work to a low number. That is protecting your turf!

And it will only take someone else to put pressure of a few folks, with pest control folks throwing their weight behind it, to take away swarms also. Somewhere, with some circumstances being blown out of proportion, it will be used as the catalyst for the next step toward completely removing beekeepers from being the competition.

They have already used the whole africanized bee situation to push it this far, when not one problem has ever been seen.
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2012, 08:33:22 PM »

wasn't pest companies here.  to many tree huggers for that.  it was the contractors board.  no license, no work....unless you work under a contractor.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
divemaster1963
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012, 10:50:06 PM »

wasn't their something about the bee population loss that the feds where considering placing them on the indanger list and making illegal to use pesticides on them and destroying colonies that where docile and not AFB's. that would make the pest control companies think twice about bee removals because they would have to keep the bees until they could be relocated?

John

I guest Florida is not concerned about there Crops to much down there?
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kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2012, 11:25:24 PM »

Quote
wasn't their something about the bee population loss that the feds where considering placing them on the indanger list and making illegal to use pesticides

good grief.  don't have them doing that.  can you imagine the red tape to keep them?  what if they end up in a tree or old building on your property and you can't disturb them?
i can think of a million ways that could go terribly wrong for all of us.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 03:35:14 AM »

You would think with all the problems they have down there in Florida, they could find something a little more important to pick on than bee keepers.  This is sad news indeed.  Now which political party has been in power in Florida for over 10 solid years?  Which political party does the Ag commissioner belong to?  I guess I don’t have to point out how laughable it is to believe THAT party is any less likely to burden us with “regulations” than the other one.  Wonder why we don’t see this on Fox News?

Thanks for the link BjornBee, that was a good read.  I've got relatives in Collier county, but they don’t keep bees.
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marktrl
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 06:12:49 PM »

To get a PCO license down here you have to work for 3 years under another PCO before the state will even consider letting you take the test. I've lived in Florida since 1983 and have NEVER heard of anyone being attacked by "killer" bees.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 09:48:11 PM »

It doesn't happen very often, but I bet my fellow beeks might agree with me on this one....

I despise laws where you have to work X years as an apprentice before you can even TAKE a dang test to prove you know enough to be licensed.  Those kind of anti competitive laws have been used up here for decades to drive up costs and for job protection.  The unions love them.  Yet, even Michigan hasn’t stooped to the level of requiring beeks to be licensed to remove bees.

I guess I don’t see the logic why Republican controlled Florida would do this?  Are they trying to track AHB or something along those lines?  Is this really for the “safety” of the public?  Is this from licensed pest controllers lobbying for more job security and higher pay by making it illegal for beeks to remove bees on the cheap?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 10:10:16 PM by BlueBee » Logged
BjornBee
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2012, 07:30:37 AM »

Bluebee,
That is twice now you bring in "parties" to the discussion at hand. Dividing the efforts to fight or even discuss this, helps no beekeeper. I have been involved in fighting and helping with several county/townships, zoning boards, and cities debate various ordinances and restrictions. Never before has political party ever come up, or an issue be completely on one side or the other. Those for and against beekeeping, and such items as regualting what beekeepers can and can not do, stretch across both sides. And the same is true in creating laws for the public. I bet a fair share of most boards, state employees, university and extension folks who are looked upon for their input are from both sides of the line. Some may say it leans left if you actually look at it.  The state employees union, and most state functions are certainly not "cleaned house" at the election of one party or the other. State EPA, state licensing boards, and a host of things keep chugging along regardless of which party is in "power". Money, influence, lobbying, and everything that goes into politics stretches far and wide. 

Perhaps that is the problem with society as a whole, and beekeeping in particular. The first discussion of problems, and some want to draw battle lines along party lines. A real shame.

Years ago in Pennsylvania, the only way to become an auctioneer, was to apprentice two years under a licensed auctioneer. Each auctioneer could only apprentice two individuals at any given time. So the ones that did have the opportunity to apprentice were sons, daughters, cousins, and other family members. (Some family member apprentices, held that position for decades, giving the auctioneer the excuse that he could not help anyone else out as his allotment was already filled) All others were shut out of the business. The state pleaded and made it clear for years that more should be done in the closed system they had. The auctioneers did nothing.

So what happened with enough pressure? They changed the law that you could take college training instead of the two year apprentice requirement. They have two main schools in Harrisburg and Reading that now kick out hundreds of auctioneers per year. And the market is now flooded with auctioneers.

Who is complaining? Certainly not the many new auctioneers that perhaps have a full time job and auctioneer on the weekends as extra income or as a side business. It is the full time third generation auctioneer trying to make a full time living off the business. He is now losing many auctions to others. And they have nothing to blame but themselves.

And so it will go with the pest control folks in Florida. Instead of middle ground, pest control folks want it all or nothing. And this will no doubt over time send more folks into the business. And if folks can not get someone to train under, I bet other avenues will open up for those wanting to work. The right to work, be trained, and make a living is something even politicians can agree on. So one way or another, over time, the market will open up, the pest control folks will complain, and they have nobody to blame but themselves.

I know. I am one of those auctioneers that said to heck with working for some jerk for two years for a guy who did not want anyone stepping on his toes.  grin

There should always be a way for folks to get training and licensed, outside the complete control of the industry itself. Without that possibility, it is nothing more than corruption on all levels.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 08:40:55 AM by BjornBee » Logged

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rober
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2012, 10:39:11 AM »

& blue bee why drag unions into this?? i do not want to go too political here so i'll be as brief as possible. fair wages, 40 hour weeks, lunch breaks, health insurance, pensions............the list goes on. do you think companies gave workers these things out of kindness, fairness, or consideration? people fought & bled & died to get those things. union wages keep EVERYONES wages up. yes, while they are far from perfect we'd all be a lot worse off without them. take a look at the current situation. unions have become steadily weaker & weaker & what's happening? wages & benefeits are shrinking at an alarming rate. let's see what happens to the wages in michigan now that your government shoved the right to work bill right up your & *ss.
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iddee
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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2012, 11:50:15 AM »

Rober, post it in coffee house and I'll respond. Sounds like a real nice conversation could be made of it.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2012, 04:03:24 PM »

There should always be a way for folks to get training and licensed, outside the complete control of the industry itself. Without that possibility, it is nothing more than corruption on all levels.
Hey, I think we agree! 

I probably shouldn't have pointed out the political affiliations of the people creating these new roadblocks, but there is some irony in there someplace.  I do agree these kind of laws are often a bipartisan effort and that beeks should come together as a unified group to fight them.  I guess what I was trying to figure out is the REAL motive behind this law.  Figuring that out, might prove helpful in preempting this kind of thing in other states.  It sounds like you may also suspect this whole thing is more about job protection than bees?   Is that a fair assumption?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2012, 04:18:57 PM »

& blue bee why drag unions into this??
Sorry Rbber, I suppose I've been hanging around beeks too long.  As a group they are a pretty conservative, right leaning bunch.  As iddee says, you do pose a good topic for debate in the Coffee house.  Just beware, I'm one of the more left leaning beeks around here. Wink  They don't show us much mercy in the Coffee house. Cry
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iddee
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« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2012, 05:03:38 PM »

AWW, Bluebee, you know I still love you. At 67, I need a good adrenalin rush now and then.    grin
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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BjornBee
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« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2012, 05:43:16 PM »

There should always be a way for folks to get training and licensed, outside the complete control of the industry itself. Without that possibility, it is nothing more than corruption on all levels.
Hey, I think we agree! 

I probably shouldn't have pointed out the political affiliations of the people creating these new roadblocks, but there is some irony in there someplace.  I do agree these kind of laws are often a bipartisan effort and that beeks should come together as a unified group to fight them.  I guess what I was trying to figure out is the REAL motive behind this law.  Figuring that out, might prove helpful in preempting this kind of thing in other states.  It sounds like you may also suspect this whole thing is more about job protection than bees?   Is that a fair assumption?



Yes!
It is absolutely about job protection.

Not one instance of a homeowner being ripped off. Not one instance of a homeowner being in danger due to a beekeeper doing a cutout. Not one instance that would suggest that beekeepers could not do what they have always done for many years, doing extractions.

And yet along comes the pest control folks in a unified cause, backed with hyped up claims of safety issues due to africanized bees. All of a sudden, the public needs protected. And would the pest control folks be happy with some limited training for a person to do this one task of a bee extraction without the three year requirement to become a full pest control officer? No way they want that. This has been a hot topic for years in pest control circles across the country. Florida just took the lead making a mountain out of nothing

They know that a full pest control license is way out of reach for the average beekeeper, wanting to do a few extractions for bees. That is why they are against any 'limited" certificate for beekeepers to allow them to do extractions.

This was pushed by nobody other than pest control folks. You do the math....then follow the money.  Wink
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iddee
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« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2012, 05:59:17 PM »

Sorry, BJ, but you have to add Jerry Hayes to the pc crowd. SUPPOSED to be helping beeks, he started this and then left and went to work for Monsanto, the other beek enemy.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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