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BlueBee
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« Reply #160 on: December 22, 2012, 07:29:53 PM » |
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what we know is that in places where there are more armed citizens and fewer gun restrictions, there are fewer criminal shootings. in places where there are more restrictions and fewer armed citizens, there are more criminal gun activities. Why don't you go to downtown Detroit, Flint or Saginaw and explain this nutty hypothesis of yours ? Bluebee, i do not want the federal government paying for another bureaucracy and to guard schools. isn't it interesting that you jumped to that as the solution?
So another program the NRA conservatives want to implement and NOT pay for. How many wars have we had now that have been unfunded? And our conservative friends talk about fiscal responsibility. LOL! To Iddee's point:The Michigan Legislators passed a new bill allowing people with concealed weapons to carry them into previously forbidden public places like schools just 24 hours before the Connecticut shooting. Governor has not signed it yet. http://www.freep.com/article/20121214/NEWS06/121214074/In-Michigan-supporters-say-new-gun-law-could-help-stop-tragedies-like-Conn-massacreThe proponents of the new bill make some of the same arguments we hear here. Unfortunately the Feds have been so laxed on gun control for so long, we find ourselves in a real mess with no good solutions IMO. Given the reality that we have, with soooo many guns and soooo many nuts (including kids themselves), I can see some logic in making concealment easier in Michigan. The crooks don't care, either way, they'll still carry. Crimes of passion will be more deadly on the downside with the new law.  I blame the feds for sitting on the butts for decades for this mess and the least they can do NOW is to ban the rapid fire human killing machines. Is that really too much to ask?  |
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S.Rummings
House Bee
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Location: Houtzdale, PA
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« Reply #161 on: December 22, 2012, 07:40:22 PM » |
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All the above is assuming 100% accuracy. I do NOT want my kids in school with guns, whether held by murderers, teachers or guards. Accidents can happen, and they do all the time. Nobody is 100% accurate 100% of the time. Amazing that the answer to guns is more guns. And how do you guarantee that all the people holding the guns will never use them in a manner you didn't intend?
Do you want 100% accuracy for the criminal or the armed teacher? Probably neither will be 100% An unarmed teacher is 100% worthless in dealing with an armed intruder so if my math is correct, a teacher shooting at an armed intruder scoring only 1 out of 10 hits is an improvement. Of course there would be training involved and the children in the class would be behind the teacher so a wall suffers from the misses, not a person. Of course frangible bullets would be used so there would be no wall penetration. Lets just hope magazine capacity is not limited to 5 rounds by law or that teacher is going to need a lot more practice. We all know idiot teachers who would certainly not be qualified to carry a gun as some are barely qualified to teach. Just chose different teachers. Kind of like many workplaces have designated and specially trained persons as first aid responders, you would have armed responders. Nobody needs to know who they are and it would be impossible to "take them out first". There would be very little additional cost as you would not be hiring armed guards with no other purpose. You are simply giving the staff you already have an additional duty. How can I guarantee people with guns will never use them illegally? You got me there. I will let you win this one and guarantee you that some people will use guns illegally in the future no matter what the laws are. The guns are out there and you will never collect them back. The only thing you can do is hope that the majority of the people in this world are good. Do you feel that way? I do. So if the majority is good and all those good people are allowed to be armed, even if 1 or 2 turn evil you have enough good armed people to deal with them. Disarming everyone is a tactic of people who do not believe the majority of people are good. They believe the bad outnumber the good. |
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iddee
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« Reply #162 on: December 22, 2012, 07:40:22 PM » |
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Sounds like you are making my point for me. If the governor signs it, maybe Detroit, Flint and Saginaw will become safer places.
That isn't too much to ask IF you can guarantee it will stop there, but you know as well as I do that that is only a stepping stone.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"
*Shel Silverstein*
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kathyp
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« Reply #163 on: December 22, 2012, 07:58:00 PM » |
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Why don't you go to downtown Detroit, Flint or Saginaw and explain this nutty hypothesis of yours ? my mistake. i should have said legally armed. knowing that you need exact speech and detailed direction, the fault is entirely mine. So another program the NRA conservatives want to implement and NOT pay for. i have no idea what NRA members or other conservatives want. i am simply restating my often stated position that the federal government should be involved in any of this stuff. you, as a good liberal, jump to the conclusion that a thing can't be done unless the federal government is involved. Crimes of passion will be more deadly on the downside with the new law. Sad nope. in fact, this has not been proved true. since CC holders must go through another layers of checks and training to get that permit, they are among the safest gun owners in the country. |
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"Nay, it [this constitution of government] must perish, if there be not that vital spirit in the people, which alone can nourish, sustain, and direct all its movements. It is in vain, that statesmen shall form plans of government, in which the beauty and harmony of a republic shall be embodied in visible order, shall be built up on solid substructions, and adorned by every useful ornament, if the inhabitants suffer the silent power of time to dilapidate its walls, or crumble its massy supporters into dust; if the assaults from without are never resisted, and the rottenness and mining from within are never guarded against. Who can preserve the rights and liberties of the people, when they shall be abandoned by themselves? Who shall keep watch in the temple, when the watchmen sleep at their posts? Who shall call upon the people to redeem their possessions, and revive the republic, when their own hands have deliberately and corruptly surrendered them to the oppressor, and have built the prisons, or dug the graves of their own friends?
Justice Joseph Story, "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States," Volume II, Chapter XIII: Mode of Passing Laws, Sections 900-901, pp. 364 (1833)
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kathyp
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« Reply #164 on: December 22, 2012, 07:59:53 PM » |
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I blame the feds for sitting on the butts for decades for this mess and the least they can do NOW is to ban the rapid fire human killing machines. Is that really too much to ask?Huh define "rapid fire killing machine" please. |
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"Nay, it [this constitution of government] must perish, if there be not that vital spirit in the people, which alone can nourish, sustain, and direct all its movements. It is in vain, that statesmen shall form plans of government, in which the beauty and harmony of a republic shall be embodied in visible order, shall be built up on solid substructions, and adorned by every useful ornament, if the inhabitants suffer the silent power of time to dilapidate its walls, or crumble its massy supporters into dust; if the assaults from without are never resisted, and the rottenness and mining from within are never guarded against. Who can preserve the rights and liberties of the people, when they shall be abandoned by themselves? Who shall keep watch in the temple, when the watchmen sleep at their posts? Who shall call upon the people to redeem their possessions, and revive the republic, when their own hands have deliberately and corruptly surrendered them to the oppressor, and have built the prisons, or dug the graves of their own friends?
Justice Joseph Story, "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States," Volume II, Chapter XIII: Mode of Passing Laws, Sections 900-901, pp. 364 (1833)
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S.Rummings
House Bee
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Location: Houtzdale, PA
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« Reply #165 on: December 22, 2012, 08:27:34 PM » |
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I blame the feds for sitting on the butts for decades for this mess and the least they can do NOW is to ban the rapid fire human killing machines. Is that really too much to ask?Huh define "rapid fire killing machine" please. I believe he was referring to Chuck Norris. Actually the anti-gunners have no idea what rapid fire is, don't know the difference between full automatic & semi-automatic, and really don't understand what is already illegal. Let's go with that. With a wave of my magic wand all "rapid fire killing machines" are now banned and are every bit as illegal as crack cocaine. Anyone caught with one faces 15 years in prison. Now what? Describe how you see the world has changed. Have the shootings stopped now? Do you feel safe? |
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acrolte
New Bee
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Location: Hopelessly Lost
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« Reply #166 on: December 22, 2012, 08:57:46 PM » |
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One thing I've learned from this whole tragic situation is that many, many people don't know jack about firearms. Normally, that would be ok with me, except that some of these people are the very ones who are going to be writing the laws.
There's just a complete and total misunderstanding of guns and, to a lesser extent, the 2nd amendment.
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S.Rummings
House Bee
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Location: Houtzdale, PA
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« Reply #167 on: December 22, 2012, 09:16:23 PM » |
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Is it similar to that feeling you get when someone decides to write some laws on bees? Maybe somebody can relate to that.
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 09:40:54 PM by S.Rummings »
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iddee
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« Reply #168 on: December 26, 2012, 04:24:34 PM » |
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown
"A LITTLE GUN HISTORY"
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents,
unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews
who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
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China established gun control in 1935. >From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
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Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens' Without them, we are 'subjects'.
"FACTS"
During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND 'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE TO, HOW TO USE IT, . SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
I AM a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"
*Shel Silverstein*
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #169 on: December 27, 2012, 12:41:33 PM » |
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Let's pass a law to keep drugs off the streets...
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kathyp
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« Reply #170 on: December 27, 2012, 01:08:27 PM » |
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"Nay, it [this constitution of government] must perish, if there be not that vital spirit in the people, which alone can nourish, sustain, and direct all its movements. It is in vain, that statesmen shall form plans of government, in which the beauty and harmony of a republic shall be embodied in visible order, shall be built up on solid substructions, and adorned by every useful ornament, if the inhabitants suffer the silent power of time to dilapidate its walls, or crumble its massy supporters into dust; if the assaults from without are never resisted, and the rottenness and mining from within are never guarded against. Who can preserve the rights and liberties of the people, when they shall be abandoned by themselves? Who shall keep watch in the temple, when the watchmen sleep at their posts? Who shall call upon the people to redeem their possessions, and revive the republic, when their own hands have deliberately and corruptly surrendered them to the oppressor, and have built the prisons, or dug the graves of their own friends?
Justice Joseph Story, "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States," Volume II, Chapter XIII: Mode of Passing Laws, Sections 900-901, pp. 364 (1833)
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BjornBee
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« Reply #171 on: December 27, 2012, 01:52:59 PM » |
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And that is why EVERY person should be against this.
The fact that they "exempt" 900 weapons, basically takes the stance that they have the right to ban all weapons, and if it were not for the exemption, the others guns would be illegal also.
Once you give permission to own guns, by the exemption of a given law, it is very easy to then take the next step and take away that given "exemption" as they claim they gave you that right to begin with. This of course goes against the constitution. You do not need exemptions to be handed to you for such items protected under the constitution.
Freedoms under the constitution are not given in the form of 'exemptions".
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kathyp
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« Reply #172 on: December 27, 2012, 02:55:28 PM » |
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not only that, but the last part with the registration of grandfathered weapons and the fingerprinting and licensing of owners ought to get everyones attention. the next step, when this doesn't work, and it won't, is confiscation. registration of all weapons and owners makes that easy.
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"Nay, it [this constitution of government] must perish, if there be not that vital spirit in the people, which alone can nourish, sustain, and direct all its movements. It is in vain, that statesmen shall form plans of government, in which the beauty and harmony of a republic shall be embodied in visible order, shall be built up on solid substructions, and adorned by every useful ornament, if the inhabitants suffer the silent power of time to dilapidate its walls, or crumble its massy supporters into dust; if the assaults from without are never resisted, and the rottenness and mining from within are never guarded against. Who can preserve the rights and liberties of the people, when they shall be abandoned by themselves? Who shall keep watch in the temple, when the watchmen sleep at their posts? Who shall call upon the people to redeem their possessions, and revive the republic, when their own hands have deliberately and corruptly surrendered them to the oppressor, and have built the prisons, or dug the graves of their own friends?
Justice Joseph Story, "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States," Volume II, Chapter XIII: Mode of Passing Laws, Sections 900-901, pp. 364 (1833)
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luvin honey
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« Reply #173 on: December 28, 2012, 03:43:45 PM » |
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Well, going back to the famous car analogy, are you worried your car is going to be confiscated also? It's regulated, licensed, registered, has a VIN. It's vehicle records are tracked and can be looked up online. You need to be screened before getting a license to operate it. It is WAY more controlled than any gun, but I don't hear any car conspiracy theories.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
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kathyp
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« Reply #174 on: December 28, 2012, 04:24:23 PM » |
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It's regulated, licensed, registered, has a VIN. It's vehicle records are tracked and can be looked up online. You need to be screened before getting a license to operate it the reason for almost all of that is taxes. it is a way for the state to make money on everything you do with your car. if you lived in a state like mine, you might worry about your car being confiscated!  again, we don't need to speculate, we have examples from history. + we know that there are many people in this country who would love to see all guns gone....at least from the law abiding. just has people have patiently waited and worked toward single payer health care, they patiently work toward gun confiscation. it can't be done over night, but all the parts can be done a bit at a time. then comes the day, as in Australia or the UK, when the law is passed and the guns collected. |
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"Nay, it [this constitution of government] must perish, if there be not that vital spirit in the people, which alone can nourish, sustain, and direct all its movements. It is in vain, that statesmen shall form plans of government, in which the beauty and harmony of a republic shall be embodied in visible order, shall be built up on solid substructions, and adorned by every useful ornament, if the inhabitants suffer the silent power of time to dilapidate its walls, or crumble its massy supporters into dust; if the assaults from without are never resisted, and the rottenness and mining from within are never guarded against. Who can preserve the rights and liberties of the people, when they shall be abandoned by themselves? Who shall keep watch in the temple, when the watchmen sleep at their posts? Who shall call upon the people to redeem their possessions, and revive the republic, when their own hands have deliberately and corruptly surrendered them to the oppressor, and have built the prisons, or dug the graves of their own friends?
Justice Joseph Story, "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States," Volume II, Chapter XIII: Mode of Passing Laws, Sections 900-901, pp. 364 (1833)
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luvin honey
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« Reply #175 on: December 28, 2012, 04:26:48 PM » |
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I believe Australia did it after one mass shooting. They didn't have the tolerance to wait and bide their time through 1000s of them.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #176 on: December 28, 2012, 05:10:26 PM » |
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I believe Australia did it after one mass shooting. They didn't have the tolerance to wait and bide their time through 1000s of them.
"...1000s of them." Now that sounds like a liberal amount of'em. You got a list of the first thousand? |
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bwdenen
House Bee
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Location: South Central Ohio
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« Reply #177 on: December 28, 2012, 05:23:41 PM » |
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Well, going back to the famous car analogy, are you worried your car is going to be confiscated also? It's regulated, licensed, registered, has a VIN. It's vehicle records are tracked and can be looked up online. You need to be screened before getting a license to operate it. It is WAY more controlled than any gun, but I don't hear any car conspiracy theories.
Here in Ohio they use the auto registration roles to confiscate your license if you don't have insurance, so it's not out of the question. If this was truly just about saving lives, then every vehicle on the road should have a governor restricing the speed to 50 MPH. More people, including children, are killed by speeding than by guns...by a large margin. It's about freedom folks. The same people whining about the Homeland Security legislation taking away our rights are right in there to take away the rights of law abiding gun owners based on the behaviour of a FEW nut cases. Fewer than 1% of privately owned guns are used in crimes. Anything the government gives you out the the goodness of it's collective heart, it can take away. And if you haven't noticed, the perks generally go to those who are supporting the decision makers. Everyone else just gets to pay for it. |
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divemaster1963
House Bee
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Location: Gray, Ga. USA.
God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
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« Reply #178 on: December 28, 2012, 05:28:18 PM » |
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I guess It's time to become the Criminal. I have spoken to many State police and local police that have hiddin there guns by doing multiple buy /sell /buy backs to lose the paper work on their own guns. all have stated they would under NO circumstance would they participate in a gun seizure of any citizen's right to own a gun.The only ones that they are worried about is the young troopers who would be stupid enough to go out and try to get them. they said there would be alot of dead troopers if that was to happen. and it would happen if they came to there house to get their guns too. I wonder if they would try to use the military to do this? I know that the Constitution says that The Military can not be used against American citizens on US Soil. I Know many Military people that would not do this also.
John
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divemaster1963
House Bee
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Location: Gray, Ga. USA.
God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
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« Reply #179 on: December 28, 2012, 05:33:15 PM » |
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I know that I have done what many police and state troopers have done. I have built a hidden valut for mine that can't be found uless you use penitrating radar to find. As far as the goverment is cncerned they were bought then sold for hard times and that the law states I don't need to keep records of legal sales to individuals
John
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