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Author Topic: Keep your hands off my rights and my guns!  (Read 12204 times)
luvin honey
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« Reply #140 on: December 22, 2012, 11:25:24 AM »

No, there isn't really any middle ground. Those who what guns banned want them all gone and they have stated this. Their published plan includes incremental reductions until they are completely outlawed. War has been declared on a long standing American way of life and you can't fight a war "a little" because the other side is coming full force. How serious do I believe the anti gunners are? Serious enough to find and convince a mentally ill person to shoot up a school so the result could be used for political gain. They would justify it as sacrificing a few now so they could save thousands later. The ends justify the means for these people. This is easily within the capability of the president to accomplish. This is probably impossible for you to see from the valley in the middle but stand on the mountaintop on either side and you will see clearly that this is either something you would do or that you could see the other side doing. Where do you see yourself standing when you pick a side?

Here are some other thoughts on the middle ground:

Revelation 3:15-16 I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.  -- Jesus

or in case you aren't religious

Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so,"  just like grape. Understand?   -- Mr. Miyagi
Are you suggesting these mass shootings are planned by anti-gun advocates? That would take quite a lot of planning and coverup for none of them to become discovered in the investigations afterwards. Wow. I'm seriously shocked that you think this many, this regularly, could be planned.

If you want to quote Jesus, then please don't forget the other things he said like, If someone slaps you, turn the other cheek. If someone asks for your shirt, give him your jacket also. He who is without sin, cast the first stone. Love your enemies. Love those who persecute you, those who spitefully use you.

The lukewarm referred to above was the churches' worship of Jesus, NOT gun control.

You want to force people to choose? It's another false choice, another false argument. Either guns without control, or no guns at all? False choice. There are very few things in life that are either/or. Most things in life have a nice, big, wide middle ground. Before conservative brains explode, think about this. I'm not talking about the difference between right and wrong, I'm saying most things are not as simple as you would like them to be.

You want abortion outlawed, then tell me what you do with all the unwanted children.
You want complete gun freedom, then tell me how you protect those who keep getting killed by guns.
You want no control over anything you do, then who makes sure natural resources are not destroyed, banks honor their purpose, Wall Street doesn't rape senior's retirement income, etc. etc.

All I hear about are "rights." Whatever happened to responsibility?
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iddee
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« Reply #141 on: December 22, 2012, 11:31:30 AM »

But that could be the situation at any time. THAT is the argument. It's as simple as a beek keeping an epi-pen if he isn't allergic. He could be at any time, then it will be too late to prepare.

""Are you suggesting these mass shootings are planned by anti-gun advocates? That would take quite a lot of planning and coverup for none of them to become discovered in the investigations afterwards. Wow. I'm seriously shocked that you think this many, this regularly, could be planned.""

Yes, when the media knows the louder the reporting, the more likely a copycat action, I would say it is instigated.

""All I hear about are "rights." Whatever happened to responsibility?""

That's what we keep asking the libs. when these kooks are released to run loose until they do something like that.
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JPBEEGETTER
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« Reply #142 on: December 22, 2012, 12:11:34 PM »

This is exactly how I feel about it.. JPP

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JPBEEGETTER
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« Reply #143 on: December 22, 2012, 12:19:33 PM »

The best solution to the problem is:  the best way to deal with a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun..
 response to a problem shooting by a police officer  15 min.  response time by an armed citizen  5 seconds.. which would you rather have in a situation...
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S.Rummings
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« Reply #144 on: December 22, 2012, 12:23:24 PM »

You want abortion outlawed, then tell me what you do with all the unwanted children.
You want complete gun freedom, then tell me how you protect those who keep getting killed by guns.
You want no control over anything you do, then who makes sure natural resources are not destroyed, banks honor their purpose, Wall Street doesn't rape senior's retirement income, etc. etc.

All I hear about are "rights." Whatever happened to responsibility?

I never mentioned abortion but start another thread and I will chime in with my plan.
I already told you how to protect people from guns. Eliminate "gun free zones". Enforce the laws we already have before writing more.
Did I say I want no control over anything? Again start different threads for these topics and I will chime in. Just because all your arguments on this subject have failed you will not distract me by changing the subject.
Rights-- You mean like the rights of mental patients I have been hearing so much about lately?
 stay on topic





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luvin honey
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« Reply #145 on: December 22, 2012, 01:13:59 PM »

All the above is assuming 100% accuracy. I do NOT want my kids in school with guns, whether held by murderers, teachers or guards. Accidents can happen, and they do all the time. Nobody is 100% accurate 100% of the time. Amazing that the answer to guns is more guns. And how do you guarantee that all the people holding the guns will never use them in a manner you didn't intend?

On FB this morning a teacher joked that she definitely should NOT be armed.

I'm not starting another topic, rummings. The point is clear. Not everything is as cut and dried, black and white as some people would like to believe. If you want X, then tell me how you will prevent Y.

Just because we don't agree doesn't mean all my arguments have failed. By that logic, all yours have also failed. Pointless bickering. I am not trying to distract anyone. I'm asking you questions to further clarify what you mean.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #146 on: December 22, 2012, 02:03:12 PM »

 applause applause applause  What Lovin Honey said.

I wonder how many of our conservatives want to form yet another branch of government to provide trained and armed security to our schools which seems to be the best solution the NRA can come up with?  What about shopping centers?  Grocery stores?  Sports events?  Everybody’s home?  How much would it cost to provide trained and armed security for every home in America?  LOL…and you thought Obama was trying to bankrupt us!  

I agree with JPBEEGETTER that an armed citizen may respond to a situation a lot faster than the police.  Depends on the fight vs flight disposition of the untrained citizen though.  I never said to disarm everybody, nor do I recall Lovin Honey suggesting that.  What I would like to see is a ban on the rapid firing killing machines so that the loons who do go on these killing sprees can be taken out quicker and faster by the Police and/or armed Citizens.  I agree the Genie is out of the bottle (unfortunately we are not Japan) and we’ll never get rid of all the loons or all the guns out there, but common sense says there are ways to reduce the carnage.        
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iddee
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« Reply #147 on: December 22, 2012, 03:13:15 PM »

""All the above is assuming 100% accuracy. I do NOT want my kids in school with guns, whether held by murderers, teachers or guards. Accidents can happen, and they do all the time. Nobody is 100% accurate 100% of the time.""

Somebody might have an accident. TRUE.

I suppose you think one person having an un aimed shot hitting them is much, much worse than 25 to 30 being hit by aimed shots. That's true liberal thinking at it's best.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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luvin honey
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« Reply #148 on: December 22, 2012, 04:47:52 PM »

Geez, iddee--can you ever make a post without referring to "liberal thinking"?

Okay, your gun-carrying school protector will be at every single school, every single day, every single hour.

How many schools in America have had school shootings? Too many, true, but how many out of the 100s of 1000s? Which do you honestly think is more likely to happen?

And your protection scenario is assuming that the protector is not shot first. Do you think possibly someone trying to complete a school shooting would take out that person first?

Not to mention that you're talking about schools only. That's not where the majority of public shootings take place. Are you going to have armed guards in every single place Americans amass in public? It would help our unemployment problem, I guess, and the NRA would be extremely delighted, not to mention gun and ammunition manufacturers. (ETA--oops, I see BB already covered this. I posted before reading his).
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kathyp
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« Reply #149 on: December 22, 2012, 04:50:35 PM »

Quote
Not everything is as cut and dried, black and white as some people would like to believe. If you want X, then tell me how you will prevent Y.

you realize that these sentences contradict each other?

there is no 100%.  we can extrapolate from what we know.  what we know is that in places where there are more armed citizens and fewer gun restrictions, there are fewer criminal shootings.  in places where there are more restrictions and fewer armed citizens, there are more criminal gun activities.  we also have several examples of school shootings and shootings in other places that have been stopped by armed citizens, including here, where the shooter was confronted by an armed citizen, and stopped trying to shoot up the mall.   we have examples of places where these shootings were not stopped.  in the second case, most of the shootings took place in gun free zones like schools, teachers, and malls...

if you take the best available info, you find that it points toward fewer restrictions and more armed citizens being a good deterrent and protection against the armed criminal and the nut.  if you agree that more laws will not impact those already lawless, or those who are nuts, then the solution seems simple.  

Bluebee, i do not want the federal government paying for another bureaucracy and to guard schools.  isn't it interesting that you jumped to that as the solution?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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luvin honey
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« Reply #150 on: December 22, 2012, 04:53:13 PM »

Quote
Not everything is as cut and dried, black and white as some people would like to believe. If you want X, then tell me how you will prevent Y.

you realize that these sentences contradict each other?
Only when taken out of context, at which point you're just trying to argue instead of understand the point.

If you want X (unrestricted access to guns), then tell me how you will prevent Y (public shootings). There's a lot of gray stuff in the middle there (personal rights, 2nd amendment, public safety, NRA power, etc)

Kathy, you keep saying more guns make more safety. It's not what appears to be going on in other parts of the planet.
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kathyp
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« Reply #151 on: December 22, 2012, 04:55:03 PM »

Quote
You want abortion outlawed, then tell me what you do with all the unwanted children.
You want complete gun freedom, then tell me how you protect those who keep getting killed by guns.
You want no control over anything you do, then who makes sure natural resources are not destroyed, banks honor their purpose, Wall Street doesn't rape senior's retirement income, etc. etc.

i think you might be confusing conservatives with anarchists?

1. we dealt with

2.  bury them?  and then we can worry about those killed with knives, bats, hammers, cars, etc....

3. that's just nuts

seems to me that you worry about a lot of stuff. what if, what if??  and your solution is to give them government more power and more control.  for some reason, that doesn't worry you at all.  afraid of something?  make a law.  make it the problem of the government.  then we don't have to deal with it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #152 on: December 22, 2012, 04:58:24 PM »

Quote
If you want X (unrestricted access to guns), then tell me how you will prevent Y (public shootings).

how about nothing?  we accept that the consequences of all of us driving are that there will be deaths and injury, yet we all still drive.  who would want to give it up even if it saved lives?  i know you will argue that we have done things to make cars and driving safer.  this is true.  people still die.  a LOT of people die.  we drive to the church for their funeral then drive to the cemetery to bury them.

and think....driving is not even a right!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 06:31:11 PM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #153 on: December 22, 2012, 04:59:51 PM »

Well, at least I get a variety of diagnoses. First I'm accused of being naive and not realizing evil exists on the planet. Now I'm told I worry too much. It seems like common sense to me to notice that most things have consequences, positive and negative. If you do X, intending Y, you probably also get 3 other unintended consequences.

If you want unfettered gun access, desiring your freedom to bear arms, you will have other problems you didn't intend. I guess you can keep ignoring them, but people keep on dying, at rates so much higher than those who die of knives, bats, hammers, and approaching the death rate of cars. Most people give a crap, especially since most people choose not to have guns and probably feel angry, resentful, and scared of those of us who do have them.

So, you could keep on nitpicking every single thing posted, or you can come up with some great ideas on how to lower gun death rates AND keep the guns.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #154 on: December 22, 2012, 05:03:36 PM »

Quote
If you want X (unrestricted access to guns), then tell me how you will prevent Y (public shootings).

how about nothing?  we accept that he consequences of all of us driving are that there will be deaths and injury, yet we all still drive.  who would want to give it up even if it saved lives?  i know you will argue that we have done things to make cars and driving safer.  this is true.  people still die.  a LOT of people die.  we drive to the church for their funeral then drive to the cemetery to bury them.

and think....driving is not even a right!
I've never seen cars some up so often in a gun debate.

We accept the risks of cars because most of us need them to get to work, buy groceries, visit our family, access our doctors/dentists, etc. Our country is enormous, our communities sprawling, and we have built a society around the car. We accept that risk.

We also have a society built partly on guns. Perhaps many in our society are reaching a point where they no longer accept the risks. Very few people (not including you, iddee) NEED their guns to live. While many of us hunt, we really could raise or purchase meat, or even skip meat. Guns are a luxury for most people, not a necessity. And perhaps those who don't see the purpose of guns at all resent their perpetuation in a society where they are doing a lot of harm, and are almost never necessary for life.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #155 on: December 22, 2012, 05:13:11 PM »

All the above is assuming 100% accuracy. I do NOT want my kids in school with guns, whether held by murderers, teachers or guards. Accidents can happen, and they do all the time. Nobody is 100% accurate 100% of the time. Amazing that the answer to guns is more guns. And how do you guarantee that all the people holding the guns will never use them in a manner you didn't intend?


Good question. I supose you could send in the police to a situation with a banana and a harsh word or two.

Afterall, with your logic the only way to ensure that a police officer never used a gun as not intended, would be to disarm all police officers also.

Funny how I can go to many places with masses of people. Airports, stadiums, political rallies, etc., and the one way that anyone is trained to deal with a gun situation, is with a gun. They do not carry wet noodles.

But something focused on protecting children, is deemed the wrong message towards kids, or deemed unsafe.

Maybe we should just have all police officers stand with wet noodles, under "gun free zone" signs.  grin

Yes, it is amazing that someone would suggest that a gun situation should NOT be dealt with something other than with another gun. These are certainly crazy times with very little grounded in reality.

Think about it.....politicians on most levels are escorted with armed protectors. And yet someone would place the safety of our children at a lesser degree of importance.

This is just nuts.   Wink
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kathyp
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« Reply #156 on: December 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM »

Quote
We accept the risks of cars because most of us need them to get to work, buy groceries, visit our family, access our doctors/dentists, etc. Our country is enormous, our communities sprawling, and we have built a society around the car. We accept that risk.

maybe where you live.  if you lived here, you'd find that there are people who bike everywhere and feel toward cars as you do toward guns.  if they had their way, they'd have cars banned except for the very few who could prove a need to own one.  fortunately, there are not as many anti-car people as there are anti-gun.
forgot to add:  those bike nuts get hit by cars all the time.  i'm sure it's all accidents....but still, they are sent flying on a regular basis!

Quote
perhaps those who don't see the purpose of guns at all resent their perpetuation in a society where they are doing a lot of harm, and are almost never necessary for life.

and so frightened people, people who never give a thought to the other ways people die, should now be in charge of telling the rest of us what is necisary and what is not.
there are a ton of things that really do harm society but we never want to confront those things.  that's to hard.  do the easy thing.  it makes you feel good.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BjornBee
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« Reply #157 on: December 22, 2012, 05:32:40 PM »


So, you could keep on nitpicking every single thing posted, or you can come up with some great ideas on how to lower gun death rates AND keep the guns.

My rights do not come with a requirement to answer questions to "earn" the right to keep them.

But I would say that anyone such as yourself wanting to take away my rights better darn well prove there answer is the correct one. And you can not.

With no guns in school, if I gained access, (easy to do) and really wanted to kill 20 children, then all I would need to do is lock the door behind me upon entering a classroom, and I could kill each and every one of them with an axe, machete, or butcher knife. They would have no place to run. And it would be done long before any police unit would get there, organize, and enter the premise.

Taking away my right to own a gun, (and you expanded it way beyond assault weapons with your comments that we should just give up hunting and meat), does nothing to protect children in today's society. Guns are just the weapon of choice. Take that choice away, and it becomes something else. Making what you suggest not really about protecting kids, and more about other agendas.

Just like airports, federal courthouses, stadium events, political rallies......add schools to the list of targeted places that need protection. Do it for the kids. And leave everything else giving false hope, at the door.
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iddee
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« Reply #158 on: December 22, 2012, 06:22:14 PM »

You haven't read my posts very well, have you? I am totally against having armed guards in the schools.

I am for allowing conceal carry permit holders to carry in the schools, and every where else. Then no one, especially the perpetrator, would know who, if anyone, was armed. That would stop him from entering to begin with, and no shooting would be needed.

As said above, the stricter the good guys gun rights are controlled, the more the bad guys shoot. It's a proven and reproven fact, but you and the other gun control nuts totally refuse to accept it.
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« Reply #159 on: December 22, 2012, 07:16:27 PM »

Emotions are running pretty high here. Everyone has opinions, thoughts, & ideas here. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a way to come up with an answer by using an unbiased scientific study?

We are all in luck! somebody already did that. Please read:
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/19/fewer-guns-more-crime

"Lott’s book is not an opinion piece or a lawyer’s argument. What it does is carefully present, review, and analyze copious data county by county, city by city, state by state, all across America, for several recent decades. Moreover, he doesn’t just cite stats that he thinks will make his case. He presents the data through highly sophisticated regression analysis that befits a first rate economist formerly of the U.S. Sentencing Commission, and thoroughly explains and demonstrates what the numbers show."
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