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Author Topic: Keep your hands off my rights and my guns!  (Read 11709 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2012, 12:09:31 PM »

simple question:

when i was young we had guns all over the place.  they were in schools, kids had them, you could order them from the sears catalog, and there was no registration.  you could also own pretty much anything you wanted to own.    we did not have this kind of shooting.

now we have registration, no guns in schools, no guns in public, background checks, and restrictions on what can be owned.  we have school shootings.

what has changed?....understanding that the number of these kinds of crimes is actually on the decrease as is violent crime over all. 

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« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2012, 01:27:50 PM »

>Hopefully you don't have young kids in your home with loaded guns readily available.

I have far more dangerous things like 120V AC current in every room that is only as far away as something that fits (a really small child's finger might and every piece of silverware will).  The world is full of dangerous things.  Cars, trucks, construction equipment, things you can fall off of, things you can drown in... You need to teach your children to avoid them.

The four occasions are spread over two places I have previously lived (and 40 years).  All but one of them were either drunk or stoned and the last (robber) may have been but he didn't stick around long enough to assess.  Two of those were confused, one was robbing me and one was after his wife who he had already beaten bloody who was in my living room awaiting the police...
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« Reply #102 on: December 20, 2012, 01:38:44 PM »

Someone has probably coined a better term for it, but I'll call it "first order thinking".  That's where you look at the thing that you think is the problem and try to solve it by attacking the problem as if that is the only thing involved.

For instance, you want less mosquitoes, so you spray the moquitoes with insecticide.  You assume you will have less mosquitoes.  But actually you end up with more mosquitoes because you wipe out the insect predators of mosquitoes and starve the mammals and reptile and amphibious predators of mosquitoes, so when the next batch of mosquitoes emerge you have no predators to eat them and you end up with more mosquitoes.

Many things in life are like this.  You have to look at the whole picture of how things interact in order to make a rational choice how to improve a situation.  Disarming honest citizens (the only ones who might give up their arms) will mean the proportion of armed criminals and crazies to honest armed citzens will shift dramatically in favor of the criminals and crazies.  The end result will be the opposite of what the anti gun people are hoping for.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #103 on: December 20, 2012, 02:34:45 PM »


what has changed?....understanding that the number of these kinds of crimes is actually on the decrease as is violent crime over all.  



When I was growing up, most got their news from the local evening news at 6pm and the national news at 6:30. (Remember Walter Cronkite) If you missed the news at those times, you missed the news that day. The paper might have had a shooting from some unknown place across the country on page A13. You would glance at the headline, and perhaps not even read it as it was from some place you never heard of.

Today, you have news 24/7. Everything is sensationalized. everything is connected to politics in some manner. We live our lives on the edge of news saturation, electronic overload, and have no time for the simpler things in life that years ago kept you from reliving bad news for weeks on end.

News is not news anymore. It is a control mechanism. It is political. It is something that most would be better off skipping for week or two. It is almost refreshing to not turn on the news for a week and just focus on family and other things. But what we do today, is hear or see something on the news, and run to a bee forum to discuss it till most could puke.

The killings did not change. The child rape rate did not change. People are still people. but now when some little known priest is accused of something, and to which years ago was a local news event, today is is national headlines.

Then we tailor statistics to make whatever case we want. Yes Australia has about a 1 in 1000 murder rate. we have about a 4 in 1000 murder rate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
But subtract certain cites like Chicago which will have over 500 murders this year, most from folks with non-assault weapons being used, and our murder rate would be very much closer to some of the other countries being paraded out as being "safe" with all their gun laws or bans. Over 230 people in Australia are still murdered every year. We at least have that many in most of our largest cites such as Chicago, Philadelphia, New York, Detroit and even washington D.C. And almost none of these murders are with assault weapons. Of course I don't think Australia has vast tracts of wasteland that we call cities where gangs, drugs, and lawlessness run wild.

Murder is now news 24/7, it is political, and there is an agenda driving this never seen before. the murders did not change. Just how it is reported, used, and manipulated.
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« Reply #104 on: December 20, 2012, 03:35:56 PM »

But subtract certain cites like Chicago which will have over 500 murders this year, most from folks with non-assault weapons being used, and our murder rate would be very much closer to some of the other countries being paraded out as being "safe" with all their gun laws or bans.

I really don't think that is correct. Nobody is allowed to carry a gun in the city of Chicago other than police. How can you have that many shootings in a city with no guns?
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divemaster1963
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« Reply #105 on: December 20, 2012, 10:19:36 PM »

But subtract certain cites like Chicago which will have over 500 murders this year, most from folks with non-assault weapons being used, and our murder rate would be very much closer to some of the other countries being paraded out as being "safe" with all their gun laws or bans.

I really don't think that is correct. Nobody is allowed to carry a gun in the city of Chicago other than police. How can you have that many shootings in a city with no guns?

The info is right. the killings are mostly drug and gang activity. they  get there guns from black market and gang affiliation form outside of chicago. gangs and organized crime groups can buy guns from other countries and sneak them into the us. Drugs are not the only thing that the Cartels ship in thought the tunnels and mules from the south. You just don't here about that as much due to the fact that a shipment of weapons worth 150000.00 dollars would be the size of two tractor trailers and a shipment of cocaine worth 1,000,000.00 is the size of a mini van. It's all in the news worthiness to the networks.


John
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« Reply #106 on: December 20, 2012, 11:18:46 PM »

That is very interesting. I guess what you are saying is that since the average citizen who wants to follow the law in Chicago must be unarmed and defenseless, but the criminals who don't care about the law still use guns to kill people. These sound like people who would not legally be able to purchase a gun but still find ways to obtain them illegally. Sounds like these gun free cities are very safe places for criminals to operate.

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BlueBee
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« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2012, 01:26:12 AM »

I found this little piece of data:

"Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. With almost one privately owned firearm per person, America's ownership rate is the highest in the world; tribal-conflict-torn Yemen is ranked second, with a rate about half of America's."  The Atlantic.

Does data even matter in this debate?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 02:32:58 AM by BlueBee » Logged
S.Rummings
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« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2012, 07:36:08 AM »

I found this little piece of data:

"Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. With almost one privately owned firearm per person, America's ownership rate is the highest in the world; tribal-conflict-torn Yemen is ranked second, with a rate about half of America's."  The Atlantic.

Does data even matter in this debate?


Sure data matters. If you like it so much maybe you can explain why every state & city in the US saw a decrease in violent crimes after relaxing the laws on legal right to carry.
Anyone can look up statistics on the internet and blindly recite them thinking it proves a point but it actually takes some intelligence to verify those numbers and explain why they are what they are.

First of all, what does "gun related" mean? Why can't they say gunshot? Do other countries lie about statistics to make themselves look better to the world? Yes, I have been in many other countries and seen this first hand. Is there a chance Yemen does not have accurate records? Again yes. You talk about a tribal-conflict-torn country and think their record keeping is 100% accurate? They have better things to do.

Explain where all these "gun related" deaths are happening. Are all these numbers from cities where guns are banned? You can't debate numbers unless you know what they mean. Just like the cities elected Obama while the rest of the country voted against him, you are going to find the numbers you are so proud of actually prove the point of the side you are trying to oppose. All the shootings in this country happen in locations you aren't legally allowed to carry a gun.

Of course you always have the option of moving to Yemen if you feel you would be safer there. I know I would move my family some place safer if I thought such a place existed. It is the responsible thing to do. Let us know what it is like when you get there.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 11:00:47 AM by S.Rummings » Logged
Keith13
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« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2012, 08:11:42 AM »


what has changed?....understanding that the number of these kinds of crimes is actually on the decrease as is violent crime over all.  



When I was growing up, most got their news from the local evening news at 6pm and the national news at 6:30. (Remember Walter Cronkite) If you missed the news at those times, you missed the news that day. The paper might have had a shooting from some unknown place across the country on page A13. You would glance at the headline, and perhaps not even read it as it was from some place you never heard of.

Today, you have news 24/7. Everything is sensationalized. everything is connected to politics in some manner. We live our lives on the edge of news saturation, electronic overload, and have no time for the simpler things in life that years ago kept you from reliving bad news for weeks on end.

News is not news anymore. It is a control mechanism. It is political. It is something that most would be better off skipping for week or two. It is almost refreshing to not turn on the news for a week and just focus on family and other things. But what we do today, is hear or see something on the news, and run to a bee forum to discuss it till most could puke.

The killings did not change. The child rape rate did not change. People are still people. but now when some little known priest is accused of something, and to which years ago was a local news event, today is is national headlines.

Then we tailor statistics to make whatever case we want. Yes Australia has about a 1 in 1000 murder rate. we have about a 4 in 1000 murder rate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
But subtract certain cites like Chicago which will have over 500 murders this year, most from folks with non-assault weapons being used, and our murder rate would be very much closer to some of the other countries being paraded out as being "safe" with all their gun laws or bans. Over 230 people in Australia are still murdered every year. We at least have that many in most of our largest cites such as Chicago, Philadelphia, New York, Detroit and even washington D.C. And almost none of these murders are with assault weapons. Of course I don't think Australia has vast tracts of wasteland that we call cities where gangs, drugs, and lawlessness run wild.

Murder is now news 24/7, it is political, and there is an agenda driving this never seen before. the murders did not change. Just how it is reported, used, and manipulated.


Very good point. the two weeks after the election i quit listening and watching the news it was nice to refocus on my local level with my family. I turned off the talk radio and put it back on the music station. it was very refreshing. this terrible event has me back watching the news and hearing the talk radio.

 I only listen now to find out where i will need to turn my guns in, or really where to go watch the suckers turn theirs in...


Keith
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Keith13
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« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2012, 08:19:28 AM »

it seems with all the money we owe maybe they can tell us what we need to do. Its nice to think we are in charge isin't it.

http://www.infowars.com/communist-chinese-government-calls-for-americans-to-be-disarmed/

Sort of like your mortgage you might think you own your home but until you make that last payment you are only a tenant of the bank

Keith
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BjornBee
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« Reply #111 on: December 21, 2012, 09:22:06 AM »

I found this little piece of data:

"Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. With almost one privately owned firearm per person, America's ownership rate is the highest in the world; tribal-conflict-torn Yemen is ranked second, with a rate about half of America's."  The Atlantic.

Does data even matter in this debate?



Here is a perfect example of making stats sound what you want them to sound.

"20 times that of the other 22"....means what? On the surface, it seems that for every murder someone else has, we have 20. And you can say that. But actually taking into account that we have 20 times more population than say someone like Australia, then actually understanding that Australia has a murder rate of 1 in 1000 while the U.S. has a murder rate of 4 in 1000 puts it in a different light. With much larger population, of course the U.S. has a higher amount of killings. But the rate is not 1 in 1000 versus 20 in 1000, to which some might think with random quotes from unknown sources.

For those that might have missed it, see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Then know that other stats are tailored to what others want them to be. many times being quoted without a link or reference.  Wink

If you actually look at the chart, countries with hardline dictators have some of the lowest murder rates. While some on the left would probably promote being a dictator society, the more rational person might conclude that the low rates were put out by the dictator, and much was probably not reported.  grin
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 12:05:37 PM by BjornBee » Logged

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« Reply #112 on: December 21, 2012, 11:26:14 AM »



That is an excellent link. Americans need to wake up and stop being so stupid. Never before in history has US policy been dictated by other countries like it is today under our puppet president.

Other countries want us to be like they are so we wil be weakened.

I can't imagine even the anti-gunners would be dumb enough to believe that all of the privately owned weapons in this country don't at least deter other countries from invading at least a little bit.

 sheeple

Sorry liberals. Guns are here to stay. Getting rid of them will require a civil war and the side that wants to keep the guns has all the guns. How do you think that war will turn out?
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luvin honey
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« Reply #113 on: December 21, 2012, 12:59:48 PM »

Because, what? The dictators of other nations are going to come us on foot, with guns? You who are afraid of your government, and will die over your right to have guns to fight your government, what do you think your government is going to come to you with? America has the largest defense in the world, by far. Your cache of guns will protect you from that, if they go rogue? Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
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« Reply #114 on: December 21, 2012, 01:59:36 PM »

Because, what? The dictators of other nations are going to come us on foot, with guns? You who are afraid of your government, and will die over your right to have guns to fight your government, what do you think your government is going to come to you with? America has the largest defense in the world, by far. Your cache of guns will protect you from that, if they go rogue? Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

If they go rogue, many would not side with the government.

I don't think it will ever come to that, or at least I hope it does not. But if we are going there for hypothetical discussions, let's be real.

In Pennsylvania alone, there are 1,299,372 registered deer hunters. That number does not include the other couple million folks with guns that do not buy deer licenses every year.

The total active duty force of all military branches number 1,456.862

If each hunter in ONE state took out one military rogue person, the entire military force would be wiped out. And it would take the sacrifices of one state to do so. Throw in the military folks that would change sides, and this would probably offset any superior fire power of the military.

The only recourse to take out 1,299,372 armed civilians would mean that entire cities and town would need to be flattened killing all that lived. It would be a jungle warfare, with the military not knowing who is friendly and who is not.

That....is the reason no foreign army would ever invade. And as for our own going against the armed people of this country, I'll side with the winning side.....the American people.

Rogue armies and dictators do very well against an unarmed populations. Against an armed population, they will most certainly fail.

Of course I am one they say "clings to their religion and guns" and have been further identified by the President as the "enemy". And that is why I will keep my guns thank you very much.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #115 on: December 21, 2012, 02:13:42 PM »

No foreign army will invade because our military by our government will defend our country. That's supposedly what our ginormous defense budget is about.

People tend to have a hard time organizing. I cannot even fathom America's gun owners being able to organize in a manner that could win a battle. And THAT'S assuming they would take up arms against other humans. Nobody in our household would be willing to. You say you cling to guns and religion, Bjornbee. What a strange combination.
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kathyp
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« Reply #116 on: December 21, 2012, 02:27:46 PM »

Quote
assuming they would take up arms against other humans. Nobody in our household would be willing to.

seriously?  that's quite odd.

Quote
Because, what? The dictators of other nations are going to come us on foot, with guns? You who are afraid of your government, and will die over your right to have guns to fight your government, what do you think your government is going to come to you with? America has the largest defense in the world, by far. Your cache of guns will protect you from that, if they go rogue? Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

fortunately, we wouldn't have to fight most of our military because most of them would remember that their oath was to the constitution and not the government.  which is one of the reasons most of us think our constitution is pretty important.

Quote
You say you cling to guns and religion, Bjornbee. What a strange combination.

he's talking about what the idiot president said about us hicks clingin' to our guns and religion.

fact is, every totalitarian government has disarmed it's people.  must be important, or why bother? 
Quote
That's supposedly what our ginormous defense budget is about.

imagine that.  one of the very few things our government is supposed to do:
Quote
Provide for the common defense.
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« Reply #117 on: December 21, 2012, 02:46:27 PM »

Because, what? The dictators of other nations are going to come us on foot, with guns? You who are afraid of your government, and will die over your right to have guns to fight your government, what do you think your government is going to come to you with? America has the largest defense in the world, by far. Your cache of guns will protect you from that, if they go rogue? Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Yes.

You can not win a war without "boots on the ground". That is a fact. If you want to occupy a country you must do it on foot.

Sure you can nuke a country and destroy it but you have to be on the ground to control it. Common sense says you don't completely destroy a country you want to take over because you lose all the benefits you were fighting for in the first place. Why would you want to start from scratch and rebuild infrastructure?

Where do I get these crazy ideas? What is my source? I was a US Army officer for enough years that I am the source. That is the belief and the practice of the US Army and that is the way war works. I don't know about this because I read it on the internet. I know it because I have done it.

You chose to ignore facts and make arguments using only feelings. You accused a disabled veteran of fearing his government and attempted to school me on the strength of the US military and apparently assumed I am a nut with a "cache of guns".

See what happens when you try to make arguments with no facts to back them up?
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« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2012, 02:56:52 PM »

Quote
assuming they would take up arms against other humans. Nobody in our household would be willing to.

seriously?  that's quite odd.

Why do you find this odd? My religious beliefs would prevent me from shooting another human, although I can imagine doing some damage to someone if they were attacking my children.

No S. rummings, I have not been in the military, but I have read the newspaper for the last 20 years. While feet on the ground appear to be a part of every war, what I've seen is a heckuva of a lot of other methods (air raids, drones, tanks, explosive devices, etc) against which guns are not going to be as helpful. If you feel safer from attack by our govt or others with your guns, that's great. You're absolutely entitled to that feeling. I'd prefer to live a life in which guns are used either not at all or for hunting and problem animal predators, instead of all the people who might try to harm me and mine. Perhaps my head is in the sand, or perhaps there's really still a lot of good out there and most people are just trying to survive and not destroy each other.                        
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« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2012, 03:16:23 PM »

No foreign army will invade because our military by our government will defend our country. That's supposedly what our ginormous defense budget is about.
Yep. Of course they are stretched pretty thin right now. It is hard to defend your own country when your militart is deployed in so mant different countries. This administration has cut and continues to cut the military in terms of both numbers & budget.

People tend to have a hard time organizing. I cannot even fathom America's gun owners being able to organize in a manner that could win a battle. And THAT'S assuming they would take up arms against other humans. Nobody in our household would be willing to. You say you cling to guns and religion, Bjornbee. What a strange combination.
I will try to remember that you have absolutely no experience in this area and keep in mind you believe organizing an armed defense is like organizing a soccer team fund raiser.

Rebels need not be organized. Guerilla warfare is very effective against a much larger and better organized force. Not going to explain it. You can look it up. (I know you won't) Lets just say a million gun owners do not need to come together under a unified chain of command. You should research some other civil wars around the globe that have been going on for years. My research was done in person. You could probably just read about it.

I understand you & your family would not fight to protect yourself & others and that is OK. There are many like you. What I don't understand is why you would try to disarm those willing to protect you. Don't assume just because you would never harm another human everyone is exactly like you. They are not.

It also amazes me that you did not understand the reference to clinging to guns & religion. This was major national news when Obama insulted the entire state of PA. Are you really that uninformed on the issues of the day or are you in such a hurry to insult those who oppose your point of view that you just don't care?
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