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Author Topic: Keep your hands off my rights and my guns!  (Read 13384 times)
iddee
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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2012, 01:21:44 PM »

How about this?

Give each person a license to own and carry a gun. Train and test them for each category of gun. List the allowed categories on their license. Make non licensed carriers subject to strict law enforcement.

The same as cars, class A, B, C, D, ETC. license allows the operation of particular vehicles.
Death and injuries could be prosecuted under similar laws as vehicular homicide if they were not used properly.

That way, the person, not the gun,would be controlled. Would you agree to something like that.

No, I didn't respond to your lifestyle. I'm still reeling in shock that someone with that lifestyle could feel the way you SEEM to feel.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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luvin honey
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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2012, 01:30:31 PM »

That's funny, iddee. Do you think people fit into neat categories, and someone who grows her own food to the level I do thinks guns should be competely unregulated? We use guns all the time--to kill the coons in our cornpatch, kill the oppossums eating the chickens and eggs, in the past to put down a sick farm animal, hunting, target practicing. Well, I don't use guns, but DH and son do. I used to, but I just didn't get much of a kick from it and actually one time found myself being extremely unsafe. It made me ill enough that I've never used a gun again. Yes, I could train myself to a better level of safety, but I'd prefer just to grow my food and let DH do the hunting.

I've been watching DVDs about John Adams. I'm freshly aware of our history as Americans and why people never want to have a fully armed gov't but not be armed themselves. I'm just suggesting being more responsible about that.

I don't know about your idea. How would you work that system regarding people with a violent history, mental disorders, etc? At what age would they be licensed?

And, just for the heck of it, I'll tell you that after our discussion this morning my husband is going shopping for an honest-to-goodness gun safe instead of the wood and glass joke he has right now. He's happy. I'm happy. Everybody's happy Smiley And no guns are leaving our household.


ETA: I'll add one more thing then step off my soapbox. We have 13 nieces and nephews, foster and respite care children in and out of our house all the time, along with our kids' friends and our friends' kids. If we are going to have guns around, they better stinking be secured.

Yes, Kathy, I realize a gun is only doing it's job while loaded, but that should only be happening when in the hands of a responsible adult or supervised responsible older child.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 05:49:07 PM by luvin honey » Logged

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iddee
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« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2012, 01:41:59 PM »

""I don't know about your idea. How would you work that system regarding people with a violent history, mental disorders, etc? At what age would they be licensed?""

The same as a driver's license. They are only issued at a certain age and then only to those who can show competency. Most states have a graduated license starting at 15 or 16, then expanding to "for hire" and semi trucks at 21, and with special training. The same should be used for guns. They won't issue a driver's license to a blind person, and will take it away from a person who abuses it. Why wouldn't that work just as well for guns?
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Keith13
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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2012, 02:34:51 PM »

""I don't know about your idea. How would you work that system regarding people with a violent history, mental disorders, etc? At what age would they be licensed?""

The same as a driver's license. They are only issued at a certain age and then only to those who can show competency. Most states have a graduated license starting at 15 or 16, then expanding to "for hire" and semi trucks at 21, and with special training. The same should be used for guns. They won't issue a driver's license to a blind person, and will take it away from a person who abuses it. Why wouldn't that work just as well for guns?

So I can no longer bring my 14 year old with me hunting? He has to wait until the government says he is responsible enough? No thanks

c'mon Idee you grew up on the farm how many kids drove from the time they could reach the pedals, they just couldn't drive on the road Wink

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2012, 03:09:57 PM »

Quote
The same as cars, class A, B, C, D, ETC. license allows the operation of particular vehicles.
Death and injuries could be prosecuted under similar laws as vehicular homicide if they were not used properly.

it needs to be left to states.  they are talking about more federal laws.  you know that when the feds get involved, we get screwed.

here's an idea that could be done nationally without our guns being taken:

just as we must now have an FBI check when we buy, why not have a place where mental heath issues can be reported.  when the dealer calls to make the criminal check he could make the mental health check at the same time.  no info need be given out.  just a pass or denied when the call is made.  just as doctors can call the DMV to have a drivers licence suspended, they could call the FBI number to report a patient that should not own a gun. 

i understand that there are some issues with this.  HIPAA is one, but it is a ridiculous law in the first place and needs some tweaking.  this is a good excuse to do it.  people who don't seek treatment wouldn't be caught. people who steal guns wouldn't be caught.  it would do nothing about gang and other gun crime. still...most of these mass shooters have mental health issue histories, and some would have been caught like the VT kid.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Keith13
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« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2012, 04:15:39 PM »

Quote
The same as cars, class A, B, C, D, ETC. license allows the operation of particular vehicles.
Death and injuries could be prosecuted under similar laws as vehicular homicide if they were not used properly.

it needs to be left to states.  they are talking about more federal laws.  you know that when the feds get involved, we get screwed.

here's an idea that could be done nationally without our guns being taken:

just as we must now have an FBI check when we buy, why not have a place where mental heath issues can be reported.  when the dealer calls to make the criminal check he could make the mental health check at the same time.  no info need be given out.  just a pass or denied when the call is made.  just as doctors can call the DMV to have a drivers licence suspended, they could call the FBI number to report a patient that should not own a gun. 

i understand that there are some issues with this.  HIPAA is one, but it is a ridiculous law in the first place and needs some tweaking.  this is a good excuse to do it.  people who don't seek treatment wouldn't be caught. people who steal guns wouldn't be caught.  it would do nothing about gang and other gun crime. still...most of these mass shooters have mental health issue histories, and some would have been caught like the VT kid.

Kathy are you saying to let gun dealers evaluate customers on the spot?

I agree with it being a state issue good point!
Keith
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luvin honey
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« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2012, 04:19:30 PM »

just as we must now have an FBI check when we buy, why not have a place where mental heath issues can be reported.  when the dealer calls to make the criminal check he could make the mental health check at the same time.  no info need be given out.  just a pass or denied when the call is made.  just as doctors can call the DMV to have a drivers licence suspended, they could call the FBI number to report a patient that should not own a gun. 
Really? And then the dealer needs to tell the mentally ill person seeking a gun WHY he/she can't have it? And hope they don't whip out a knife instead? What about people undiagnosed? Or flying under the radar?
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Keith13
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« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2012, 04:22:44 PM »

not so much the law as it is now the dealer just tells you there is an issue doesn't go into details he just says there is a problem and he can't sell you the gun.

I guess it would be along those lines.

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iddee
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« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2012, 05:00:41 PM »

Keith13, Your 14 year old can drive your car anywhere on private property now with the land owner's permission, and he shouldn't be allowed to drive or carry a gun without the land owner's permission. It would be the same with guns.
Also, I didn't say at what age. I said it could be graduated. IE: For example only. Gun range or back yard, 6 years old.
Hunting with parent or responsible adult, 8 years old.
Hunting alone, 12 years old.
Hunting with others minors, 16 years old.
Carrying in public, 18 years old.

Again, only for example, not for recommendations.

I don't think your son can go downtown today and buy a gun and carry it down the street in most states. Maybe all states.

Again, like a driver's license, there could be different limitations and restrictions.

Kathy, I was referring to states doing it, same as driver's license.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kathyp
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« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2012, 05:41:20 PM »

Quote
And hope they don't whip out a knife instead? What about people undiagnosed? Or flying under the radar?

what if, what if, what if....

no, but if i go buy a guy, the dealer must call the number and give my social, address, etc.  i must be fingerprinted in this state.  if the dealer makes the call and i have not passed the check for some reason, all he tell me is that i have not passed.  the same call could be used as a clearing house for mental illness holds.   the dealer doesn't even need to know the reason why.  he just tell the person that they have not passed.

yes the person could go nuts, but that could happen now.  on the + side, the dealer is probably armed!   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BlueBee
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« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2012, 10:51:22 PM »

The problem debating with Conservatives is they don’t use data to form their opinions.  They view everything thing in religious terms.  It’s either “right” or “wrong”.  There is NO room for any compromise….EVER.  Liberals on the other hand believe in logic and the scientific method.  IF the data suggests something is NOT working, then there is good reason to question the current course of action.

If our conservative friends were as open minded as they suggest they are (I know….don’t laugh too hard laugh laugh laugh), maybe they’ll rent Bowling for Columbine this week and see more than one side of the story.
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iddee
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« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2012, 10:56:50 PM »

But if I get fat, I won't be saying it was the spoon's fault. And you call libs logical??  HA! HA! HA!
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
BlueBee
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« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2012, 11:06:15 PM »

If the DATA suggests spoons are making you fat, then YES we will blame the spoon  Wink
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Keith13
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« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2012, 07:57:31 AM »

The problem debating with Conservatives is they don’t use data to form their opinions.  They view everything thing in religious terms.  It’s either “right” or “wrong”.  There is NO room for any compromise….EVER.  Liberals on the other hand believe in logic and the scientific method.  IF the data suggests something is NOT working, then there is good reason to question the current course of action.

If our conservative friends were as open minded as they suggest they are (I know….don’t laugh too hard laugh laugh laugh), maybe they’ll rent Bowling for Columbine this week and see more than one side of the story.


you are 100% correct my faith does guide my choices. I fear for the person that it does not.

Bowling for columbine really?? watching shamu stand on the street corner in compton or open doors in canada hardly fact based tv. I watched it there was a reason it was on the comedy aisle in blockbuster rolleyes

Keith
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iddee
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« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2012, 08:16:40 AM »

DATA versus common sense.
There lies your problem.
Data shows the quickest way from the roof of a 20 story building to the street is simply to jump.
Common sense says take a bit more time and use the elevator.
Maybe testing that will result in a few less libs.
Thanks for the idea.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
BjornBee
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« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2012, 08:49:54 AM »

And if the data does not support he ideology and the needed outcome.....make it up. We have seen that before.  grin

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kathyp
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« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2012, 10:09:07 AM »

Quote
Liberals on the other hand believe in logic and the scientific method.  IF the data suggests something is NOT working, then there is good reason to question the current course of action.

i present you with data all the time and you seem incapable of even reading it.  and of course, we know that data is never manipulated, right?  a little  University of East Anglia anyone?  next you'll tell me to go watch Al Gore's movie!   lau lau
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2012, 01:15:21 PM »

Al Gore's movie stunk--I literally couldn't stay awake for it, but it doesn't mean our environment is just A-okay.

Here's an idea I found on another forum, and one I could seriously get behind.

"For those who feel the need to carry a firearm, I have an idea. If people want to carry a concealed handgun in public, they should be required to pass a live fire exam with rubber bullets in several stressful environments. If they can hit a gunman, and nothing else, every time, they deserve to carry a concealed weapon because they might actually do some good. If they miss with any of their shots, they don’t get the gun.
 
This test should be administered every 3 years. See how well people do in stressful situations.  For  a real life example, just look at the Empire State incident where all injuries (beyond the original homicide) were a result of shots fired by police. In other words, by individuals who are fully trained in the use of firearms.  Think the average Jane or Joe can do better?  I don't."
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2012, 01:58:19 PM »

LOL  i have done those live fire tests.  no one passes with 100% not even the cops.  nice try, though.

again, look at the CC guy at the mall shooting here.  he didn't fire his weapon.  the shooter left and shot himself.  we'll never know if the shooter was done, but he was trying to unjam his weapon when he was confronted.  he must have succeeded after he left since he shot himself.

another story today of one of the school staff under a desk seeing the shooter from where she hid.  shades of the Columbine story.  many people carry concealed here.  no one goes about shooting innocent bystanders, but many have drawn weapons to stop bad things from happening.

Quote
just look at the Empire State incident where all injuries (beyond the original homicide) were a result of shots fired by police. In other words, by individuals who are fully trained in the use of firearms. 

you assume that because they are legally armed by the city or state they are trained?  besides, they might have been suffering from soft drink withdrawal after that idiot limited the size that could be purchased. evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2012, 01:59:36 PM »

thanks for reminding me of that shooting, though.  good example of how gun control doesn't work.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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