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Author Topic: Keep your hands off my rights and my guns!  (Read 12002 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2012, 11:20:30 AM »

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iddee--is a car's main purpose to kill?

my gun may be designed to kill, but i do not kill with it.  i enjoy sport with it.  my car may not be designed to kill, but it certainly can.  is design the criteria for legislation?  if it is, then we go down the road of banning sharp pointy things....except maybe screwdrivers...until someone kills with one....

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Keith13
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 11:32:07 AM »

All my 6 year old son has talked about for the past couple of months is his Red Ryder bb gun that he is going to get from Santa.   That is the only thing he wants from Santa.

you know he will shoot his eye out

Keith
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luvin honey
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2012, 11:32:56 AM »

If there was a societal problem with kids stealing cars and committing homicide with them, then I would gladly keep my car locked and the keys on my person. It would just be a commonsense, basic, decent thing to do as a member of a society that includes more people than me.
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iddee
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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 11:51:36 AM »

Since it is a well known fact that cars in America kill many more people than guns in America, it does make you wonder, doesn't it. If they weren't designed to kill, why are they made to go over 100 MPH when there is no speed limit here any where near that? Why is there no roll cage built in?

Yes, there should be laws, but for the act, not the item. Negligent homicide, yes. Gun only, NO! Whether leaving keys in a car, leaving a loaded gun laying around, or leaving water in a bucket near a toddler. They should all be treated the same.

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luvin honey
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« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 11:59:26 AM »

I agree, mostly. The other items are harder to kill someone accidentally, but yes, people need to be responsible for what they leave lying around if it could reasonably cause the death of another.

And, iddee, as it became obvious that cars killed, we got seatbelts, stronger car bodies, airbags. It's not like nobody's doing anything about the OTHER things that kill people.

There are laws that pools in a neighborhood be inaccessible to wandering children. You can't as a nonfarmer buy bulk amounts of fertilizer. We do all kinds of things and make all sorts of laws when things become an obvious danger.

But you won't convince me that some guns and some ammunition are necessary for anyone but the military or police.
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kathyp
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 12:09:23 PM »

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If there was a societal problem with kids stealing cars and committing homicide with them, then I would gladly keep my car locked and the keys on my person. It would just be a commonsense, basic, decent thing to do as a member of a society that includes more people than me.

my car was stolen when the keys were in my pocket and the car locked.

you are making the leap that there is a societal problem with kids stealing guns and killing people.  i don't think that's true.  there is a societal problem with kids.  fortunately, it doesn't lead to mass killings to often.  we have 300 million people in this country.  in the grand scheme of things, these deaths are a statistical anomaly.  they do make good press.

how many kids died this week - these 20 and of what causes?  we don't know.  we really can't care about every single death.  this caught our attention because it was different and it was multiple deaths in one place.  all the other kids that died this week were just as important to their parents and grandparents, yet we do not wring our hands over every death and wonder why.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 12:18:35 PM »

you are making the leap that there is a societal problem with kids stealing guns and killing people.  i don't think that's true.  there is a societal problem with kids.  fortunately, it doesn't lead to mass killings to often.  we have 300 million people in this country.  in the grand scheme of things, these deaths are a statistical anomaly.  they do make good press.
No, actually I'm not. Iddee was. Obviously, you had taken reasonable precautions to keep your car from being stolen.

I'm making the point that the very least any of us can do is keep our weapons unloaded and locked up. I don't know the details of this one fully, and they seem to be changing constantly, but apparently this mentally ill person had access to his mother's assault weaponry.

And, I don't agree with your last sentence whatsoever. How many movements and organizations are born from single deaths? MANY. They matter deeply to those left behind, and people regularly DO something about it, whatever they think could help prevent another similar death.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 12:21:16 PM »

.

But you won't convince me that some guns and some ammunition are necessary for anyone but the military or police.

Why are you even discussing this? You openly state that you will not be convinced that anyone other than police and military should have guns. So your not here to learn, discuss, debate, or consider both sides of an issue. You already made up your mind. You have already shut out any possibility that you might be wrong, or that you would, could, or should change your mind, be influenced, or may know less than you could.

I find having conversations with folks who regardless of the discussion, regardless of the facts presented to them, that they "will not be convinced", about as stupid as standing banging your head against the wall. It also shows a lack of intelligence, as most base their views on an ever changing "pot" of knowledge that they collect over a lifetime. It is sad to think that someone has put the lid on the pot, claims he knows everything he needs to know, and that everyone else must be wrong.
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iddee
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 12:28:19 PM »

""And, I don't agree with your last sentence whatsoever.""  REALLY?
Can you tell me how many were killed in the Conn. shooting?
Can you tell me how many other kids died the same day in the US?
I think that proves her point.



Like guns, the libs go about it in a useless way and ignore the problem. An undisciplined teen in a car that goes 140 MPH will not be saved by a seat belt or airbag. They would be saved by a roll cage and 65 MPH governor. So simple, but too restricting for libs, and doesn't help with their population control. They would rather reduce the population and use their lame excuses to blame it on others.


No, I probably can't convince you to relax your uninformed thoughts about guns. You did not grow up in a house with six kids, 10 to 20 guns standing in the corners, and ammo in the dresser drawers, all with an understanding of what a gun is and how it is used by age 6. You did not depend on what the kids killed in winter and the fish they caught in summer for food for the family.
Even today, you did not can and freeze 40 lb. of deer meat last Thursday, nor can 45 pints of fresh greens yesterday, as I did.

My income is less than 20K per year and I live better than most that make 50+. No, you will not change your thinking because you have not lived it. That does not mean you should take it away from me.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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luvin honey
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 12:33:17 PM »

.

But you won't convince me that some guns and some ammunition are necessary for anyone but the military or police.

Why are you even discussing this? You openly state that you will not be convinced that anyone other than police and military should have guns. So your not here to learn, discuss, debate, or consider both sides of an issue. You already made up your mind. You have already shut out any possibility that you might be wrong, or that you would, could, or should change your mind, be influenced, or may know less than you could.

I find having conversations with folks who regardless of the discussion, regardless of the facts presented to them, that they "will not be convinced", about as stupid as standing banging your head against the wall. It also shows a lack of intelligence, as most base their views on an ever changing "pot" of knowledge that they collect over a lifetime. It is sad to think that someone has put the lid on the pot, claims he knows everything he needs to know, and that everyone else must be wrong.
Well, bjorn, it's just that one point that I'm set on.
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iddee
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 12:39:57 PM »

""But you won't convince me that some guns and some ammunition are necessary for anyone but the military or police.""

You may be right, but if we agreed, you would not stop there.

Also, I think they are as necessary, if not much more so, then a teen who got their license last week having a convertible that will go well past 100 MPH.

Please explain the necessity there. please?
   
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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luvin honey
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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 12:40:45 PM »

""And, I don't agree with your last sentence whatsoever.""  REALLY?
Can you tell me how many were killed in the Conn. shooting?
Can you tell me how many other kids died the same day in the US?
I think that proves her point.



Like guns, the libs go about it in a useless way and ignore the problem. An undisciplined teen in a car that goes 140 MPH will not be saved by a seat belt or airbag. They would be saved by a roll cage and 65 MPH governor. So simple, but too restricting for libs, and doesn't help with their population control. They would rather reduce the population and use their lame excuses to blame it on others.


No, I probably can't convince you to relax your uninformed thoughts about guns. You did not grow up in a house with six kids, 10 to 20 guns standing in the corners, and ammo in the dresser drawers, all with an understanding of what a gun is and how it is used by age 6. You did not depend on what the kids killed in winter and the fish they caught in summer for food for the family.
Even today, you did not can and freeze 40 lb. of deer meat last Thursday, nor can 45 pints of fresh greens yesterday, as I did.

My income is less than 20K per year and I live better than most that make 50+. No, you will not change your thinking because you have not lived it. That does not mean you should take it away from me.
"...yet we do not wring our hands over every death and wonder why." THIS is what I'm referring to. Are you just trying to argue or actually understand what people are posting? Of course any child's death is deeply mourned. Obviously we have no way of knowing of each and every one of them, nor would most of us want to or have the energy for that. My POINT is that many quiet deaths spur a movement.

It's interesting the assumptions you make. And you're dead wrong. I grew up in a house full of guns. My brother spent most of our childhood shooting at things, and I spent much of our childhood with a bow and arrow in my hands. My house is STILL full of guns. My family was poor, and you bet we depended on venison. My family STILL depends on what my husband and son shoot, and what I grow. Please do not tell me about my life. I am, after all, the one living it. I have 3 freezers FULL of the food I grew and froze, wild berries, fruits, vegetables, wheat, meat. My pantry has 100s of jars of preserved food. I raised and my husband and I butchered (with help from friends) 150+ chickens, 2 hogs, 2 deer so far. DO NOT tell me how I live. I spend half the year growing, canning, freezing, preserving and foraging for food. And even if I didn't, my thoughts on guns are just as legitimate as yours.

The ONLY point I made, if you would pay attention, is that gun owners (including my family and husband) should be responsible for the careful storage of guns and ammunition. If you seriously can argue with that, then it's possible we can't have a civil conversation. Please, please tell me where I suggested taking your guns away. Give me a break. It leads to my suspicion that a lot of gun owners are a bit crazed when this topic comes up, and ANY conversation about it is translated in their mind into "They want to take my guns away!"
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luvin honey
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 12:42:51 PM »

""But you won't convince me that some guns and some ammunition are necessary for anyone but the military or police.""

You may be right, but if we agreed, you would not stop there.

Also, I think they are as necessary, if not much more so, then a teen who got their license last week having a convertible that will go well past 100 MPH.

Please explain the necessity there. please?
   

The slippery slope mentality of people fighting for their gun rights is wearisome. Why are so many gun owners rabid about this? I have a husband with at least 16 guns, and who believes semiautomatic weapons should never be outlawed, and yet our conversations about guns and rights and responsibilities do NOT lead to him thinking that gubmint is about to come take his weapons.

You keep bringing up cars. Maybe that belongs in another conversation, as I believe we're talking about a shooting right now and not car deaths. It is interesting, though, why cars go as fast as they do.
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 12:47:46 PM »

Like guns, the libs go about it in a useless way and ignore the problem. An undisciplined teen in a car that goes 140 MPH will not be saved by a seat belt or airbag. They would be saved by a roll cage and 65 MPH governor. So simple, but too restricting for libs, and doesn't help with their population control.

Most cars can’t go 140 MPH; the tires are not rated for that speed so the designers place a high speed fuel cutoff calibration in the engine controller to cut off the fuel above SAFE speeds.  Safety is highly regulated in automobiles; not in guns.

Now if teens are saving up all their welfare money rolleyes and buying Corvettes, they might be able to do 140mph.  The Corvettes have much higher speed fuel cut cals.  However they’re also one of the safest cars in existence.
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iddee
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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 12:53:37 PM »

Luvin honey says.... "
The ONLY point I made, if you would pay attention, is that gun owners (including my family and husband) should be responsible for the careful storage of guns and ammunition."

After I posted this....


"Yes, there should be laws, but for the act, not the item. Negligent homicide, yes. Gun only, NO! Whether leaving keys in a car, leaving a loaded gun laying around, or leaving water in a bucket near a toddler. They should all be treated the same."

Now I wonder who it is that is not reading or listening.

As Bjorn said, It is useless to try to convince a closed mind.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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iddee
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 12:56:23 PM »

Wake up, Bluebee. You're dreaming. Most all cars will go far faster than any posted speed limit in the USA. They will also go much faster than the car body can hold up at in a crash. ALL cars on the road today will go fast enough to kill us and our kids.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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luvin honey
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 12:59:47 PM »

Luvin honey says.... "
The ONLY point I made, if you would pay attention, is that gun owners (including my family and husband) should be responsible for the careful storage of guns and ammunition."

After I posted this....


"Yes, there should be laws, but for the act, not the item. Negligent homicide, yes. Gun only, NO! Whether leaving keys in a car, leaving a loaded gun laying around, or leaving water in a bucket near a toddler. They should all be treated the same."

Now I wonder who it is that is not reading or listening.

As Bjorn said, It is useless to try to convince a closed mind.
Right, iddee. Still missing your point. All dangerous items left lying about should be the liability of the person owning them. That is NOT saying they should be taken away. It's saying the person should be liable. We agree on that. So what's the problem? I'm not trying to take your guns away.

What, no apology for grossly mischaracterizing my life? No acknowledgement that you and I might have far more in common for lifestyle than makes you comfortable? Must I be a wealthy suburbanite in order that you can easily cast aside anything I might say?
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iddee
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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2012, 01:07:22 PM »

So you are saying our argument is whether to call it 6 or a half dozen? Maybe so, but there seems to be a language barrier somewhere.

So to make it simple, make no laws about guns, but make strict laws about people and a person's actions. If that is what you are saying, we have no problem agreeing totally with each other.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 01:08:35 PM »

Quote
I'm making the point that the very least any of us can do is keep our weapons unloaded and locked up

it's fairly useless in that state.
Quote
access to his mother's assault weaponry.

not an assault weapon.  terms mean something.

only police and military need weapons.  


really?  do a google search on how many attacks, robberies, etc. have been stopped by homeowners or cc people with weapons.  how long does it take for the cops to get to your house once you call 911?  ever time it?
never mind that the whole point of an armed population is to not have all that power in the hands of the government.

did you see the story about the mall shooting here?  the shooter was confronted by an armed shopper and gave up trying to unjam his weapon only to run off and shoot himself. if no one had confronted him, would have have left to shoot himself, or continued shooting shoppers?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2012, 01:10:57 PM »

Kathy, do NOT misquote me. That makes it a lie. There are some WEAPONS and AMMO that only the military and police need, as I said: "But you won't convince me that some guns and some ammunition are necessary for anyone but the military or police."

Iddee--I don't know enough about guns laws to comment on that. DH tells me there are already bans on certain-sized clips and fully automatic weapons. Maybe we don't need more laws. Maybe we need to enforce those we already have. Maybe we need to get at the root of the problem that seems to be creating young men (mainly) who think this is a way to handle things.
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