Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
December 25, 2014, 11:30:22 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: 24/7 Ventrilo Voice chat -click for instructions and free software here
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Landlord refusal to install beehive  (Read 3426 times)
chinsk
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« on: December 09, 2012, 11:22:55 PM »

Hi,

As per the Apiary Code of Practice I informed my Landlord that I would like to install a hive.
I explained that I was registered with the DPI and no permit was necessary.
I also explained the benefit of bees for the garden, and that the hive is not a permanent fixture.

To my surprise the Landlord declined my request for a hive on the property. (It's a single level detached house in Alphington, VIC on about 700 sqm - plenty of room and flora for bees).

Has anyone had any experience with this before or can offer some suggestions on how I might be able to persuade the landlord otherwise?

Luckily a friend has come to the rescue and has allowed me to start a hive on their property, but I would prefer to have bees in my own backyard.  Sad

Thanks for your help!
Logged
bernsad
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 462

Location: NE. Melbourne, Australia


« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2012, 11:53:08 PM »

I'm surprised you asked, I would have just installed it.
Logged
chinsk
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2012, 11:55:20 PM »

Yeah. I wasn't going to ask.. already have the boxes and location ready to go - just waiting for the bees to arrive.
But I didn't anticipate it would be refused!

All the neighbours were notified and were looking forward to some local honey!
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4511

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2012, 12:30:34 AM »

As a person with some rental homes, I'm sure the concern of the landlord is getting sued if someone has an allergic reaction in the neighborhood.  The landlord is the guy with the assets the lawyers can grab; a house.  If you try to put yourself in his/her position, is it worth risking a lawsuit to allow bees on the property?  I would say no too (on a small city lot), and I'm a beekeeper.  I do have a place with a big lot which I have rented and had bees on; it would be a real stretch for a lawyer to blame a hive 150 meters away from people as being irresponsible.

You say the lot is only 700 sq meters?  If my math is right, that is only 0.143 acres; that really is a small lot to be keeping bees on IMO.  My advice would be to move to a more rural location and ask the landlord if they would allow bees.  Most landlords love a good renter that pays on time and are willing to work with you as long as you don't put them at some legal risk.  Good luck with your bee keeping.  It is addictive.     
Logged
Lone
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1080


Location: North Queensland


« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2012, 12:32:05 AM »

Chinsk,

Accomodation and animals have been a problem in Melbourne for a long time.  You could write out a comprehensive case detailing the low risk and the support of the neighbours, and any other pro bee information you can find, but some people are very stubborn. Sometimes though, the effort of a well researched argument will pay off.  Could you get some advice from the rental tribunal also or your estate agent?  Also, find out if there are any council restrictions where you are.

When I was having trouble getting bees into town here, the DPI said they would write to the council if necessary.  However, your landlord can place any such restrictions he wants to on the property.

Unfortunately, the easy going disposition of many australians is mostly a thing of the past, and a change in attitude is going to involve educating the kids while they are still young enough to enjoy nature.

Lone
Logged
chinsk
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2012, 12:43:12 AM »

Thanks for the responses.
It is not a huge issue as a friend in nearby Macleod has offered his backyard for keeping bees. Just a bit surprising and disappointing really.
I have contacted the estate agent again and put forward that the neighbours were aware of my intentions and were looking forward to some local honey. Another neighbour already has a hive that is going well too.

The local council allows bees without permit or registration. Only need to register with DPI (which is currently free).



Logged
Lone
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1080


Location: North Queensland


« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 12:47:49 AM »

You could ask one of the adjoining property owners for permission to keep it there.  It would practically be in your backyard, and they'd get their honey supply.

Lone
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4511

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 12:49:41 AM »

I like that idea too!
Logged
Lone
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1080


Location: North Queensland


« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 02:12:01 AM »

Sneaky but legal.
Logged
squidink
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 165


Location: Melbourne


WWW
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 06:01:54 AM »

I'm dodgy but I would just set up a hive. It looks like your neighbours are not going to dob you in. Just move the hive every 6 months when you get an inspection.. If you do get caught out just move it to your friends place.

Ben
Logged

deknow
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 759


Location: Massachusetts


WWW
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 09:39:45 AM »

...don't know how things work down under, but perhaps if you had liability insurance you would get a different answer.
Deknow
Logged
bud1
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 747


Location: macon, Ms.


« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 11:02:50 AM »

I cant believe a person would try to make a landoner do something he doesnt want to do with his own property; hoss if it were me you would be on yo happy way. i run from 50 to 150 hives and most on other peoples property. and they ask for the bees. let it out that you have bees and someone will ask you to put some bees near them for polination. some people just refuse to be pushed, but on the other hand when asked nicely are mighty acomidating
Logged

to bee or not to bee
S.Rummings
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 84

Location: Houtzdale, PA


WWW
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 12:19:05 PM »

As a landlord, I am afraid I have to side with the landlord on this one. The fear of liability is pretty much the first reason for every "no" answer you get from a landlord. When evaluating special requests from tenants I apply a simple formula. I ask myself how much additional income will I receive by granting this request and what is my potential liability. If the income exceeeds the potential liability then the answer is yes, otherwise no. It is simply just a business decision. Not sure how things are where you live but people are sue happy in the US. Landlords are seen as having "deep pockets" even if it is not actually true and by asking permission you have made the landlord fully responsible for any potential liability.

The best solution is buy your own property where you can do whatever you want. You will always have to live under someone else's rules when you rent.
Logged
chinsk
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 03:34:01 PM »

Ok thanks. It's not that big a deal. I am putting the hive on my friend's property.

I am also a landlord and a homeowner. Our home is currently being rebuilt hence we are renting, so the bees would have had to move in a few months anyway. Now they will stay put on my friend's land.

It's interesting to read about the fear of litigation come up a few times as a reason for a landlord's refusal. That culture of litigation and fear of litigation does not (yet) exist here down under.

I also did a little bit of online searching and couldn't find any example where a landlord had been sued over bees on a property.

It doesn't really make sense to me anyway. Does the landlord get sued if a tenant's dog bites the neighbour? I wouldn't think so.

I don't really want answers to those questions as it is off topic. But that could be a good thread starter elsewhere.

Thanks again for the responses. I am satisfied with my course of action.

 
Logged
johnauck
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 55


Location: Melbourne Australia

Smalltime Beekeeper In Victoria Australia


WWW
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 05:33:23 PM »


It's interesting to read about the fear of litigation come up a few times as a reason for a landlord's refusal. That culture of litigation and fear of litigation does not (yet) exist here down under.

I also did a little bit of online searching and couldn't find any example where a landlord had been sued over bees on a property.
 

I agree, there seems to be a perceived risk without much evidence. Did the landlord say that liability was the reason? May be they just don't like bees.

I reckon it would be very difficult to prove that it was one _your_ bees that stung someone. And it would have to be proven that you were negligent?

I would be interested to hear an opinion from a real lawyer.



cheers

john
Logged
AllenF
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8186

Location: Hiram, Georgia


« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 06:43:52 PM »

Check with the landlord and see if there is a policy you could get to relive him from liability.  Also, the landlord may just be deathly afraid of bees or worried that workers that he might have working there in the future may run into problems with them bees.   Or may have had to pay to have bees removed from one of his rental properties in the past and has a beef with honey bees.   Lots of possibilities why. 
Logged
Jim 134
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2280


Location: Hinsdale, New Hampshire 03451 USA


WWW
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 08:44:22 PM »

Hi,

As per the Apiary Code of Practice I informed my Landlord that I would like to install a hive.
I explained that I was registered with the DPI and no permit was necessary.
I also explained the benefit of bees for the garden, and that the hive is not a permanent fixture.

To my surprise the Landlord declined my request for a hive on the property. (It's a single level detached house in Alphington, VIC on about 700 sqm - plenty of room and flora for bees).

Has anyone had any experience with this before or can offer some suggestions on how I might be able to persuade the landlord otherwise?

Luckily a friend has come to the rescue and has allowed me to start a hive on their property, but I would prefer to have bees in my own backyard.  Sad

Thanks for your help!



This is NOT YOUR property the end............
   



                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
chinsk
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 08:47:05 PM »

Thanks for that informative information.

The end it is.
Logged
rawfind
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 214

Location: Ne ,Victoria


WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 11:24:25 PM »

Thanks for that informative information.

The end it is.


Interestingly  imagine a court case suing for being stung, how would it be proven if it was your bee or someone elses that did the stinging?
Logged
chinsk
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2012, 12:00:12 AM »

Just heard back from the property agent that the landlord has changed their mind following further information regarding the hive and bees.

He has approved a hive in the backyard. Smiley

Logged
bernsad
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 462

Location: NE. Melbourne, Australia


« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2012, 12:12:37 AM »

Woohoo!
Logged
S.Rummings
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 84

Location: Houtzdale, PA


WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2012, 09:55:20 AM »

First of all, great the landlord let you have your bees!


It's interesting to read about the fear of litigation come up a few times as a reason for a landlord's refusal. That culture of litigation and fear of litigation does not (yet) exist here down under.
...
It doesn't really make sense to me anyway. Does the landlord get sued if a tenant's dog bites the neighbour? I wouldn't think so.

The problem is that perception is reality. If someone has a fear it does not have to be valid or confirmed by a lawyer. Sometimes this can be fixed with education and it sounds like you did that.

Has a landlord gotten sued because a tenants dog bites a neighbor? Yes, many times here in the US.

Logged
bernsad
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 462

Location: NE. Melbourne, Australia


« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2012, 05:58:09 PM »

Has a landlord gotten sued because a tenants dog bites a neighbor? Yes, many times here in the US.
How do you justify that? It's not the landlord's dog, it's the tenants. Seems to me that's half the problem with the US, too litigous.
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4511

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2012, 06:30:02 PM »

Bernsad you are ABSOLUTELY right!!!!  And itís probably more than half our problems.  Sad

What's the immigration policies into Australia these days ?  grin
Logged
bernsad
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 462

Location: NE. Melbourne, Australia


« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2012, 06:36:30 PM »

Bernsad you are ABSOLUTELY right!!!!  And itís probably more than half our problems.  Sad
And here I was expecting an argument on that point.

What's the immigration policies into Australia these days ?  grin
Pretty liberal. Unless of course you are a genuine refugee arriving on a boat with a hundred others and the boat is leaking and about to sink. Then we'll rescue you, place you offshore someplace like Nauru and take a few years to process your application. Welcome.
Logged
Wonga
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 68

Location: Blue Mountains, Australia

The budget should be balanced, the Treasury refill


« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2012, 06:07:50 AM »

    I know America has the reputation of being litigious and infested by lawyers - but I really don't think it is any different here in Australia - after all our legal systems are both basically the same, descended from the British, and have evolved down the same pathways. In my experience, lawyers here can come up with just as much weirdness and litigation with strange outcomes as in America.

As for immigrating here from America, plenty do, and welcome too, you can even get permanaent residency without having to loose your US citizenship, you still get to vote in Oz.  If you have enough money and bring it in with you, you can jump to the front of the queue as a business immigrant. Come on over, no Varroa (yet), and very little winter here either, most Ozbees are on honeyflow all year round. Our taxes are, I think overall less than yours too, and its a pretty easy going sort of place, Cricket is not compulsory -and ya get mangoes for Christmas .

Logged
bud1
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 747


Location: macon, Ms.


« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2012, 09:59:24 AM »

been wanting to come down for years, but geof tells me gota leave my guns.
i for one detest the word lawyer, let alone the person smiling as he legaly cleans you out as hs pears chear him on (judges).
Logged

to bee or not to bee
max2
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2012, 03:44:37 PM »

As a person with some rental homes, I'm sure the concern of the landlord is getting sued if someone has an allergic reaction in the neighborhood.  The landlord is the guy with the assets the lawyers can grab; a house.  If you try to put yourself in his/her position, is it worth risking a lawsuit to allow bees on the property?  I would say no too (on a small city lot), and I'm a beekeeper.  I do have a place with a big lot which I have rented and had bees on; it would be a real stretch for a lawyer to blame a hive 150 meters away from people as being irresponsible.

You say the lot is only 700 sq meters?  If my math is right, that is only 0.143 acres; that really is a small lot to be keeping bees on IMO.  My advice would be to move to a more rural location and ask the landlord if they would allow bees.  Most landlords love a good renter that pays on time and are willing to work with you as long as you don't put them at some legal risk.  Good luck with your bee keeping.  It is addictive.     

I had 6 hives on a lot of a similar size without any problems. Bees fly 5 km - I can't see the issue?
Logged
bigsting
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 51


Location: Murray lands SA


« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2012, 05:39:58 AM »

at least bee would be better than a dog or cat thay wont wee or poo on his carpet and tell him the bee are beter in a box than his house
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4511

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2012, 01:29:02 PM »

Max how would you like to be sued for $5 million dollars if youíre the only one in the area with a bee hive and somebody dies from an allergic reaction?  In the USA, it happens!  Check out this link:  http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/family-sues-vista-over-bee-stings-death/article_ef946fb3-625d-5c0e-b2ea-e7fbbacea4f7.html

Of course the lawyers didnít go after the guy who owned the bees themselves, since bee keeping isnít the most financially rewarding business out there.  Instead they go after the property owners and in this case the City.  (Good luck fighting City HallÖthat is one battle the lawyers likely lost! laugh laugh laugh)

Same kind of thing happens with dogs here.  If you rent to somebody with a dog and the dog attacks the mailman, meter reader, or neighbor kids, the landlord will get sued.  The average reward for a personal injury is now $60,000 here.

As another poster said, there really isnít much cash flow in the rental business after you subtract out the higher taxes, property insurance, and maintenance.  If your landlord has a mortgage on top of all that, they very likely have a negative cash flow.  Any chance of a law suit is simply not worth the hassle on things that arenít generating that much cash to begin with. 
Logged
prestonpaul
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 245


Location: Kennedys Creek, Victoria, Australia.


« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2012, 06:38:28 PM »

Just heard back from the property agent that the landlord has changed their mind following further information regarding the hive and bees.

He has approved a hive in the backyard. Smiley


Congrats  grin
Just a thought, it may be worth dropping off your landlord and agent some honey from your next harvest as a thank you.
Logged
max2
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2012, 12:26:29 AM »

Max how would you like to be sued for $5 million dollars if youíre the only one in the area with a bee hive and somebody dies from an allergic reaction?  In the USA, it happens!  Check out this link:  http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/family-sues-vista-over-bee-stings-death/article_ef946fb3-625d-5c0e-b2ea-e7fbbacea4f7.html

Within a 5 km radius we still have many feral hives in Australia. While my bees maybe very easy to identify ( the read socks are a dead give-away!) most people would never be able to pin-point the bee with the criminal streak. Dogs would be different deal.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.498 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page December 15, 2014, 03:09:44 AM