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Author Topic: Here we go again  (Read 2478 times)
T Beek
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« on: December 06, 2012, 06:56:42 AM »

USS Ike (Eisenhower) pulled into the Syrian Coast yesterday, an aircraft carrier w/ 8 bomber squadrons and over 8000 troops.

Do I sense another "false flag" action triggering another invasion?  This time involving alleged chemical weapons?  

Why yes, yes I do.  

We're getting closer to occupying IRAN all the time, the real "prize" we've been seeking since at least 1948.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 08:21:23 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 08:47:53 AM »


We're getting closer to occupying IRAN all the time, the real "prize" we've been seeking since at least 1948.


 huh  huh

I sure hope you don't know what you're talking about.
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Keith13
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2012, 08:56:49 AM »

While I agree of all the middle eastern countries Iran would be the one I would grab, I do not believe we are after occupying Iran.

I hate to see the Ike in the position it is in. While I would agree to bombing Syria if we knew where the chemical weapons were I would hate to see it happen.

We are in this position due to Americas very weak middle eastern policy. This weak hands off policy has emboldened the rebels to topple the governments. not all ways a bad thing but in this case the rebels are looking to advance radical islam and introduce sharia law upon the people like it or not. No matter how you slice it thats bad for America.

Also hate to say it but when they find the canisters of gas the back will be stamped Iraqi Army. We are about to find where all those chemical weapons we couldnt find are buried. I remeber the pictures off the convoys of transport trucks leaving Iraq and headed to Syria. I guess its time to find out what they were carrying

truly unfortunate

Keith
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T Beek
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2012, 09:08:07 AM »

"None Dare Call It Conspiracy"

Fact is, the 'powers that be' have wanted control of Iran (we did for a time w/ the Shah/CIA in charge) for a very long time and our history of intervention there is disturbingly sordid, yet 'fortunately' available for those seekers among us.  See; Truman, Harry S (as good as place to start as I can think of).

It should be viewed as "NO ACCIDENT" that we currently surround IRAN w/ our current occupations, and it has little to do w/ any nuclear desires IMHO.  

The only people on the Globe who don't know (much about) this history are Americans. You can bet the Iranians are taught this history.  Just as we are taught our own Revolution.

Wonder why?  We all should.
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2012, 09:34:42 AM »

iran is not greater prize than iraq and we threw that away.  i'd like to see iran changed, but we had a chance to influence change and we threw it away. this prez is far better at throwing away than taking.  i don't think he has the nuts for it anyway.  wouldn't worry about it to much, although if he puts boots in there, god help the poor soldiers because  the ROE are bound to see many of them killed.

BTW, we always have ships over there.  considering the size of the area,  we are always off the coast of everything over there.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2012, 09:39:48 AM »

Maybe in the past say 60 years ago I would agree with you. But in this modern Politically correct world I ain’t buying it. Just like we did with Iraq, Afghanistan, and in a stretch Vietnam, we dump tons of money into a country then hand them back the keys once we are done. Whereas in WWII, to the victor went the spoils, we still have significant land in all conquered countries as I believe we should. Pardon me for thinking that we should own the land that American blood freed. We should still own VBC in Iraq and we should keep Baghram in Afghanistan until we no longer want them.
In this day and age America is too scared of the other countries to conquer and hold land, for what reason I do not know but thats beside the point.
But all that is besides the point America could never stomach a ground war in Iran. The best we could do would be bombs from afar. The only way to win in Iran is a full scale war which would include troops on the ground. For sure obama ain’t putting troops anywhere. And I doubt the next President would either.
But back to Syria, the Ike is there to try to prevent the regime from gassing the rebels plain and simple. Though I do believe obama might bomb the last of the Syrian army. Is that in Americas interest? No but as we have seen in the past that is not his current foreign policy. This guy is intent on continuing the arab spring even though it is has looked like a huge mistake for America for over a year now. But again I think obamas intentions are different
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T Beek
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2012, 11:16:31 AM »

Once Syria is occupied, IRAN will no longer have any way/where to go (in their minds), they will become a Country full of people backed into a inescapable corner by an Empire (and their own sick government) they've been preparing to defend against for over 60 years.  The Empire that has imposed economic sanctions (and much worse) upon them since 1979, after what "IRANIANS view as "their" Revolution.  Think about that for just one minute...please.

They will no longer posses a single friendly neighbor and will be surrounded by a foe who has tried to jerk them around every which way since the end of WWll.

Haven't you heard the drumbeat to war w/ IRAN being preached to us for years?

Of course 'we the people' don't 'want' a ground war in IRAN, it'll make IRAQ seem like a Cake-Walk.  Personally, I believe we are up to something much more sinister.   Just as Truman dropped the BOMB (s) on JAPAN to scare the crap out of the 'rest' of the World, I feel another similar scenerio upon us.  We'll just have to wait and see now won't we?

To deny IRANs significant and economic potentail in "EVERYTHING" that we do and have done in the Middle East for the last 60 years is naive, missing the mark and/or the BIG picture to say the least.

IRAQ was/is a stepping stone to IRAN, and we still have lots of Americans there occupying at least 14 American (taxpayer) Built Bases, despite what we all told.  Just as we will have forces in Afghanistan for years to come, way beyond 2014.

One of my favorite hero's, Brig. Gen. Smedly Butler (USMC Most decorated) put it best when he finally recognized what our American Forces were really up to around the World when he said;

"I have been nothing other than a "thug" enforcing the demands of corporations."

Keith13;  I assure you, Vietnam was considerably more than a "stretch" with 6 million S/E Asians killed (85% civilian), 60, 209 Americans killed (at last count, they're still adding it all up,still adding names  rolleyes), and 305,000 wounded (I'm one of those).

Civilian Deaths as a percentage of total deaths (in our BIG wars);  This list doesn't include the other 40 or so Countries we have occupied and reaped havac since the end of WWll.

WWl: 15%
WWll:  65%
Korea:  70%
Vietnam:  85%
IRAQ:  93%

Notice any patterns?

Is it the amount of American Blood that is all important?  W/out the shedding of blood from over 20 million RUSSIANS we in America would not be proclaiming  a victory in WWll.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 11:29:12 AM by T Beek » Logged

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Keith13
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 11:32:42 AM »

Patterns in those numbers yes the enemy has slowly taken off their uniform and begun to hide amongst the civilians
The wars have moved from the countryside and into the cities

Keith
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2012, 11:35:34 AM »

thanks keith.  you beat me to it.  those numbers indicate a chance in tactics...and weapons, to some extent.

what is the advantage to having iran over all others? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2012, 11:42:19 AM »

Tell it to the dead and wounded.

O I  L

Ask the question;  who is the 'enemy' according to those who are occupied?  Do any of you EVER think about that?  Seems doubtful when looking at these posts.
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 12:02:06 PM »

Patterns in those numbers yes the enemy has slowly taken off their uniform and begun to hide amongst the civilians
The wars have moved from the countryside and into the cities

Keith

What would be the alternative for the people living in these Countries 'we' chose to occupy?  Wave a flag, yell out loud, here I am, come kill me.  PLEASE Keep This Real if possible.  

Could 'somebody' (anybody) answer just ONE question posed?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 07:45:05 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 12:53:18 PM »

WWl: 15%
WWll:  65%
Korea:  70%
Vietnam:  85%
IRAQ:  93%

Notice any patterns?

Yes, the pattern of using more and more civilians in the fight, and/or hiding soldiers in civilian clothes in homes. A pattern that has increased for many years.

There is your one question answer.
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 01:08:18 PM »

You're right!  applause applause and Thank you!

We did it ouselves during our own Revolutionary War, and its also how the Romans were finally defeated, that and the fact that they stretched their Empire too far and got way too drunk on power and exceptionalism.  

Hmmmm, does that sound familiar?

We should all know by now that whenever "the People" get involved it will become a loosing proposition for the occupiers.  Whether the occupation is your Country or your Bank Account.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 01:19:02 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2012, 07:55:06 AM »

Patterns in those numbers yes the enemy has slowly taken off their uniform and begun to hide amongst the civilians
The wars have moved from the countryside and into the cities

Keith

This is how America justifies killing civilians in other Countries, labling them all combatants.  Nothing new there, its an "OLD" story. 

And "what if" the roles were reversed?  Or are we talking about that old line of "Might makes Right" regardless who is killed?

Like past societies WE use any and all means to satisfy the demands of our Masters.
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 09:22:18 AM »

I am not sure I am following you here. I thought I gave you a pretty simple answer let me try again

Yes the wars we have fought lately there have been more civilian deaths. The enemy realizes they could never stand toe to toe and slug it out with America they are just too weak. Ask Sadam in gulf war 1 it was a route. The enemy now uses a mostly guerilla war model it’s how they beat the great bear out of Afghanistan it’s how they bled America out of Vietnam.

Also, they enemy hides amongst the civilian population. They use civilians as shields to fight against us. They know we will have a hard time blowing up a village to remove an arms cache or call for fire, when a sniper is killing Americans, but we will wipe out civilians with the strike. They use our weakness for total war against us.

I by no means am saying let’s indiscriminately kill civilians I am just saying that war as we know it is changing and has since Vietnam.

Of course its about OIL its been about oil since WW2. The former US policy and  warfare is about installing friendly regimes both to the US and its people to continue to supply our insatiable appetite for oil.  Also thanks to this president it will get worse due to the instability in the region (not to mention his domestic energy policy). Cheney said it yesterday the Middle East no longer fears America. It’s the reason why the region is about to explode right now. It’s a power grab for oil rich grounds and for who gets to continue to sell oil.

And I agree with you about Russian blood it’s why they grabbed half Germany and erected the Iron curtain. I had no problem with that. Unfortunately for them they lost the cold war and communism fell. Fortunately for them enough of their literature made it into US 60’s culture and now that generation is destined to bring America down that path
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2012, 09:35:38 AM »

""This is how America justifies killing civilians in other Countries, labling them all combatants.""

WHOA!! I cannot believe you posted that statement. You said you were in 'nam. If so, you know of the little kids that begged for gum, then pulled the pin on a grenade in their pocket and took a few soldiers with them. You know of the many soldiers who were killed from rifle fire from village huts with women and children going about their daily routines. You know about the 12 year olds killed while manning mortar launchers.

Don't come here with this labeling bs, or I will do what you have been accusing me of.

First Calvary, 1966-1967, and proud of it.
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2012, 09:45:59 AM »

yup.  in spite of the UN instructions on how to fight wars and who to kill or not, there really is no distiction between civilian and military anymore.  hasn't been since Korea.  if you can't tell the good from the bad, you do what you have to do to live.

it's one of the reasons i have great respect for the isralies.  not sure i'd show the same restraint that they show when they are taking out enemey rocket sites.

O I L......if that's the case, why didn't we stay in Iraq?  plenty of oil there.  we didn't even try very hard to get the oil contracts there when they were being bid out.  if that's the case, why are we not drilling here?  we have plenty.  far cheaper than going to war, drilling, and exporting from that far.  heck...take Canada.  they have lots and so does Mexico.

that old and tired O I L excuse does not work.

while Keith is right that it is a component for war in the middle east, and maintaining a certain stability there for the sake of oil is a motivating factor, taking a country for the sake of the oil does not make sense.  never did.  that's the hardest way to get an oil field and unnecessary.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2012, 11:01:10 AM »

""This is how America justifies killing civilians in other Countries, labling them all combatants.""

WHOA!! I cannot believe you posted that statement. You said you were in 'nam. If so, you know of the little kids that begged for gum, then pulled the pin on a grenade in their pocket and took a few soldiers with them. You know of the many soldiers who were killed from rifle fire from village huts with women and children going about their daily routines. You know about the 12 year olds killed while manning mortar launchers.

Don't come here with this labeling bs, or I will do what you have been accusing me of.

First Calvary, 1966-1967, and proud of it.

Of course iddee, and 'if' we had invaders occupying this Country....well...no telling what WE would be capable of doing.

I had hoped this post would develope into a 'deeper' dialogue rather than the standard 'tit for tat' back and forth finger pointing and obvious misunderstanding of the intent.  I accept any balme seen fit for failing to make this a conversation.  It may be a fault but it has always been in my nature to seek 'alternative' perspectives. 

A BIG one for me has long been;  Why do people hate (us, them, each other and ourselves)?

It is probably the greatest motivator behind my posts.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:11:31 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2012, 11:06:40 AM »

but that wasnt your argument you just gave numbers of civilian deaths and we told you why.

If someone invaded America who knows. The looney left would dance in the streets at the downfall of America right up until the invaders detached their heads. The extrme gun nuts would defend the country until the last gun was pried from some rednecks cold dead fingers

whats your point?
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2012, 11:13:46 AM »

but that wasnt your argument you just gave numbers of civilian deaths and we told you why.

If someone invaded America who knows. The looney left would dance in the streets at the downfall of America right up until the invaders detached their heads. The extrme gun nuts would defend the country until the last gun was pried from some rednecks cold dead fingers

whats your point?

I'm sorry Keith13 but you have only provided the 'justification' for killing civilians.  I thought I was clear on that.  Its OK for us to see the world diferent.  It Does NOT make us enemies.
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2012, 11:18:31 AM »

but that wasnt your argument you just gave numbers of civilian deaths and we told you why.

If someone invaded America who knows. The looney left would dance in the streets at the downfall of America right up until the invaders detached their heads. The extrme gun nuts would defend the country until the last gun was pried from some rednecks cold dead fingers

whats your point?
C'mon, Keith, really? This Loony Left has a house full of guns (DH's, to be sure) and I guarantee you I would grieve deeply if America fell to anyone. I love this country deeply. You don't have to agree with ALL the govt's actions to love your country. If you can't stand Obama in office, yet still love America, I'm sure you understand that.

As for the rest, I'll have to keep reading on. I'm not happy at all at the thought of more war. I have wondered often if there would be so much war if women were the heads of nations.
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2012, 11:23:05 AM »

TBeek Trust me I do not see you as the enemy.

Luvin honey I don't see you as the looney left I see you as more left of center, but if you want to jump in the looney bin far be it from me to stand in the way grin

But to be honest I truly believe folks on the far left are waiting for America to fail I believe there is a since of guilt among them for what I dont know.

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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 11:35:37 AM »

And back to the question at hand

I saw the syrian rebels AKA Al Quaeda now have chemical weapons (its on youtube you can watch them search syrian rebels kill rabbits) do you think obama will launch strikes against them when they utilize chemical weapons? Because his current stance is he supports the rebels now low and behold these same rebels/terrorist/Al Quaeda/ insurgents whatever he wants to call them have the means to wipe life off the face of the earth on a massive scale. My o my what is America to do now?

Do you think once they take control of syria they plan to establish a utopia for all people to coexist peacefully?

It will not be long until an attack on American soil will happen again

sad day

Keith
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2012, 11:38:04 AM »

Perhaps those on the Left who you assume are 'waiting' for America to fail are just bearing wittness to the Right pushing America off the cliff?  

Just a diferent perspective to think about.  I'm NOT taking sides.
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2012, 11:38:39 AM »

TBeek Trust me I do not see you as the enemy.

Luvin honey I don't see you as the looney left I see you as more left of center, but if you want to jump in the looney bin far be it from me to stand in the way grin
But to be honest I truly believe folks on the far left are waiting for America to fail I believe there is a since of guilt among them for what I dont know.


Thank you Smiley I actually value your opinion, as you seem pretty reasonable.
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« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2012, 11:40:03 AM »

But to be honest I truly believe folks on the far left are waiting for America to fail I believe there is a since of guilt among them for what I dont know.
Some of our policies/wars have made life very difficult (or ended it) for many other people of many other nations. We've also done a lot of good, or tried to. But I doubt there are many nations that no blood on their hands, including us.
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« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2012, 11:46:59 AM »

How many times will history repeat itself? The same people we climb into bed with, then cause our later problems?
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2012, 01:04:19 PM »

TBeek, I think you and I agree on many of the world's problems. It's the cause and cure we disagree on. The invite still stands if you ever get in this area. Face to face, we will likely agree on much more. Black and white print is not the best way known to transfer thoughts.
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2012, 01:19:47 PM »

So true, so true  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2012, 02:06:15 PM »

This is how America justifies killing civilians in other Countries, labling them all combatants.  Nothing new there, its an "OLD" story.  

And "what if" the roles were reversed?  Or are we talking about that old line of "Might makes Right" regardless who is killed?

Like past societies WE use any and all means to satisfy the demands of our Masters.
T Beek knows whereof he speaks.  Read "All the Shah's Men" for an in-depth analysis of the CIA's role in overthrowing Mossadeq and re-installing the Shah.  https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol48no2/article10.html   This is why so many Iranians don't trust us.
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2012, 02:49:46 PM »

Quote
I have wondered often if there would be so much war if women were the heads of nations.

only if they are along the lines of Thatcher...or maybe Boadicea.   evil

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2012, 02:59:50 PM »

You have to wonder if she would have attacked if she had not been beaten, or her daugthers raped.
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2012, 04:55:42 PM »

i'd like to think she wouldn't have taken being conquered quietly.  even if it was a quiet conquering.  who knows....and who knows if the story is even accurate in the first place?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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luvin honey
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2012, 08:02:27 PM »

It's interesting to think about Smiley I bet there were more women in power through history than the books tell us about, seeing as men wrote the books and all.
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2012, 05:52:58 AM »

This is how America justifies killing civilians in other Countries, labling them all combatants.  Nothing new there, its an "OLD" story.  

And "what if" the roles were reversed?  Or are we talking about that old line of "Might makes Right" regardless who is killed?

Like past societies WE use any and all means to satisfy the demands of our Masters.
T Beek knows whereof he speaks.  Read "All the Shah's Men" for an in-depth analysis of the CIA's role in overthrowing Mossadeq and re-installing the Shah.  https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol48no2/article10.html   This is why so many Iranians don't trust us.

HOO-RAY, finally another poster AWARE of our history in IRAN

Mossadeq was the FIRST "democratically" elected person in the Middle East.  And we thought the USA was all about promoting democracy, NOT always or even usually.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 06:21:07 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2012, 05:59:25 AM »

It's interesting to think about Smiley I bet there were more women in power through history than the books tell us about, seeing as men wrote the books and all.

Why do we think its called 'HIStory'  shocked
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2012, 10:17:33 AM »

Quote
And we thought the USA was all about promoting democracy

that i'll agree with, and neither should we be.  we should be about promoting our own interests.  this business in the middle east and africa right now is going to come back and bite us....all in the name of democracy.

democracy usually just gives the dictators a foot in the door.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2012, 02:55:44 PM »

Quote
And we thought the USA was all about promoting democracy

that i'll agree with, and neither should we be.  we should be about promoting our own interests.  this business in the middle east and africa right now is going to come back and bite us....all in the name of democracy.

democracy usually just gives the dictators a foot in the door.
I agree. I think the change needs to come from within, not forced from without. Although maybe we could play a supporting role at times in helping enforce what has already been changed from within, if that makes sense.
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The pedigree of honey
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