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Author Topic: 12 frame deeps  (Read 3809 times)
BlueBee
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« on: November 24, 2012, 10:19:08 AM »

Iím thinking about making up a couple 12 frame deep brood boxes to experiment with this spring.  Brother Adam believed a Langstroth box was too small for a good queen and that breaking the brood nest up into 2 boxes was a bad idea.  So he went with a single 12 frame brood box using Dadant sized jumbo frames and supered those with shallow supers.

So what do you think of a 12 frame deep box?  Good idea?  Bad idea? 

No Iím not trying to reinventing the wheel, just following Brother Adam. Smiley
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Finski
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 11:35:05 AM »



So what do you think of a 12 frame deep box?  Good idea?  Bad idea? 

No Iím not trying to reinventing the wheel, just following Brother Adam. Smiley


Oh my g,,,. Derekmism had hit to you.

Langstroth's idea is to add more space vertically, not horizontaly. Put another box over you brood box.

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BlueBee
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2012, 11:44:22 AM »

I think our friends in the UK have some good ideas too.   Smiley

What I like about Brother Adams design is I don't have to lift that 2nd deep Lang box to inspect the bottom one.  It's also nicer to only have to inspect 12 frames as opposed to 20.  Plus, I do my wintering in single boxes so a single insulated 12 frame deep box would be all I would need.

12 frame brood boxes worked better than Langs for Brother Adam didn't they?
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rail
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 11:49:06 AM »

Finishing a couple for next spring, I like Brother Adam's philosophy and practice.

Lets compare results next year?

This is a 12 frame (13 frames will squeeze in there) 9 5/8" chamber, starting a 11 3/4" chamber for the Dadant deeps.



Inner Cover.




« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 11:59:51 AM by rail » Logged

Sirach
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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2012, 12:02:31 PM »

This is an 8 frame Jumbo Nucleus! I enjoy these deep combs!



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Sirach
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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2012, 12:03:44 PM »

Looks nice Rail, so are you going to use deep frames or Dadant jumbo frames? 

As you probably know, I currently have some extra deep jumbo hive prototypes Iíve been running for a couple years now.  They do fantastic, but it is a pain to make the jumbo frames (14.5Ē deep).  However they work so well, I am going to build another 7 or so this winter.   However I also want to experiment with something that can use standard frames; like a 12 frame deep box.  If they work as well as my jumbos, they would be easier to make in the long run.

I havenít seen an advantage of small cell vs big cell yet, but one thing that is nice about the small cell PF series frames (4.9mm cells) is you get a LOT of cells per frame.  Not only are the cells smaller, but there is less wasted space in top bars, side bars and bottom bars.  Hence I think with the PF frames I can begin to approach the brood cell counts I get with my jumbo sized frame. 

What are you going to use for supers?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2012, 12:07:00 PM »

That nuc looks pretty healthy!  Iím very happy with how many bees my jumbo combs generate.  Watch out when they swarm though!  Itís a massive cloud of bees.
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rail
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2012, 12:10:20 PM »

I am going to try both, but prefer the "Jumbos"!

It is all about a single chamber brood nest and IPM for me. Even Walter T. Kelley wrote about the 10 frame Langs not being sufficient for queens.
 
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Sirach
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2012, 12:59:55 PM »

 cheesy.
Very fine wood work!

.
But go after some Brother Adam's foot prints.... makes no sense.


Is the right tittle Brother Adam III Junior
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:17:45 PM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2012, 01:08:11 PM »

.
Karl Kehrle (aka "Brother Adam") (3 August 1898 in Mittelbiberach, Germany Ė 1 September 1996 in Buckfast, Devon, England) was a Benedictine monk, beekeeper, and an authority on bee breeding, developer of the Buckfast bee. "He was unsurpassed as a breeder of bees. He talked to them, he stroked them. He brought to the hives a calmness that, according to those who saw him at work, the sensitive bees responded to." (The Economist, Sept. 14th 1996)[1]

When I started beekeeping at the age of 15, Brother Adam was at my age 64 y.

Lets resad more: Due to health problems he was sent by his mother at age 11 to Buckfast Abbey, where he joined the order (becoming Brother Adam) and in 1915 started his beekeeping activity

He started beekeeping 100 years ago..

When I started 5o y ago, everything has changed after that: bees, hives, insulations, feeding boxes, nursing, yields, pastures, stings.

The smoker is the same and Lanstroth frames and mediums.
And the car eates more gasoline than it earns.






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BlueBee
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2012, 01:17:56 PM »

Is the right tittle Brother Adam Junior

I'm thinking more like SAINT Brother Adam  Smiley
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Finski
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 01:44:51 PM »

Is the right tittle Brother Adam Junior

I'm thinking more like SAINT Brother Adam  Smiley

he is saint because he is dead, or what sounds " Saint Blue Bee"- Sounds a power word to me  like " saint fart, what a day !"
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Jim 134
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 08:58:41 PM »

BlueBee.........

Have you look at Dadant hives AKA Jumbo hives

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,34989.0.html


In 2010 you still could get the Dadant frames & foundation but you need to call them
 
http://www.dadant.com/



              BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 09:09:48 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
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Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
BlueBee
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 11:07:01 PM »

he is saint because he is dead

In order for somebody to become a Saint there must be proof of a posthumous miracle.  Such as saving a life from certain death.  Who knows, maybe Brother Adam will appear in the Aurora Borealis some night and lead a lost Scandinavian bee keeper out of the woods and into safety?  Better be nice to those bee keepers in the UK Smiley
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BlueBee
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 11:25:26 PM »

Thanks for that link back Jim134, I do vaguely remember that thread.

I like the idea of using the official Dadant jumbo frames, but Iím a plastic kind of guy.  If I could get the Dadant frames in plastic, it would be a no brainer to go that route.  Iím not aware of anybody selling the Dadant Jumbos in plastic and the PF frames are just too cheap (in a good way) and convenient to pass up.  So my plan right now is to go with PF deep frames in a 12 frame deep hive with frames spaced at the normal 35mm as opposed to Dadants 38mm.
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rail
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2012, 09:20:38 AM »

BlueBee,

I am preparing both the 9 5/8" and 11 3/4" depth in the 12 or 13 frame chamber. Supers will be 5 11/16" shallow and 7 5/8" western with 10 frames per super; (experimentation)!!!

My goal is a single chamber through the winter, just trying to find what works for me and my location!

I like your plan and hope to see your results.

These are modified frames for 11 1/4" depth with Rite-Cell foundation.




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Sirach
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2012, 11:53:45 AM »

Nice pics Rail.  Yuall keep us informed on how it comes out, looks interesting.





Joe
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BlueBee
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2012, 05:51:53 PM »

1:  Have a plan
Check

2:  Have bees
Check

3:  Get Polystyrene
Check  grin

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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2012, 06:02:43 PM »

.
Where you put that polystyrene?

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BlueBee
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« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2012, 06:13:35 PM »

Finski, I listened to you about insulation.  That is a good thing, right? 

All that foam is going to be used to build bee hives for next spring.  Some will be used for making 12 frame deeps (this thread), some will be used for making more of my Jumbo sized hives (1.5 deep Langs), and the rest will be used for nucs.  I make the walls, tops and bottoms of my boxes out of this stuff. 
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Finski
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2012, 01:23:43 AM »

 

All that foam is going to be used to build bee hives for next spring.

It is 120% sure that it is waste of material and time. Construction insulation board is not right material.
You must something better to do.

After 2 years all your boxes will be  rubbish.  Many will  brake before you get bees inside. The rest will handle bees jaws and ants.
Ants destroy those boards in one week. Best in 2 days.

,
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BlueBee
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2012, 02:10:23 AM »

Iíve been making my hives out of this stuff for years now; where have you been? huh  Neither the bees nor the Ants have destroyed the hives.  Not a single hive has broken.  Using these sheets of poly is cheaper than wood, cheaper than commercial poly hives, and MUCH more insulated than commercial hives.  Iíve been making hives like Derekm since before he even got started with bees.

These 3 jumbo hives are made out of the same sheets of polystyrene; theyíve been painted to protect against UV.



All of these are also made of polystyrene sheets.  Iím about 99.995% sure it was not a waste of time. Wink


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Finski
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2012, 03:47:10 AM »

.
Okay. YOu do it.

I have done too own hives. Commercial poly hives are all not good because bees eate them broken.,

Wel. Carry on!

I byed used polyhives  8 US dollars per langstroth box.
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2012, 04:25:33 AM »

It depends on the density of the poly, the pink and blue kind that can bee used under ground usually ok, the white kind doesn't work beecause its to soft and the bee will turn it into snow/sand  Wink

mvh edward  tongue
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BlueBee
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2012, 11:14:37 AM »

Edward, you are right.  The blue and the pink stuff is extruded polystyrene.  They have smaller cells and are denser materials than the expanded white polystyrene.  The extruded foam has more compressive strength than the expanded foam and is used below grade here to insulate basements and cement slabs.  I build with 38mm thick foam and it is a very good insulator.

Can the ants chew the foam on occasion?  Yes, they can if you donít have experience with it.  Can the bees chew the foam on occasion?  Yes, they can if you donít have experience with it.  However the biggest problem with pure foam is neither bees nor ants.


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BlueBee
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2012, 11:16:59 AM »

Well. Carry on!

I byed used polyhives  8 US dollars per langstroth box.

Finski, you gotta have some faith in us American bee keepers  Wink

You have a good price for your polyhives over there.
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Finski
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2012, 01:05:44 PM »


Finski, you gotta have some faith in us American bee keepers  Wink



I only told my experiences.
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rail
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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2012, 02:13:32 PM »

BlueBee,


Think about making a division board and division frame excluder for queen production!
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Sirach
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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2012, 05:11:26 PM »

Rail, what size of supers are you planning to use with your 12 frame brood boxes?  

Brother Adam used 12 frame shallow supers if I recall.  I'm thinking of just going with 9 or 10 frame supers.  What do you think?
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rail
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« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2012, 06:29:16 PM »

BlueBee,

Brother Adam used 10 shallow frames per super (Page 18 of his book).

I plan to use shallows 5 11/16" and westerns 7 5/8", 10 per super also. I like those fat honey combs! Smiley

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Sirach
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« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2012, 07:57:40 PM »

ďA brood chamber of this size is square and measures 19 7/8" x 19 7/8" x 11 7/8" in depth.  The supers are of identical size but only 6Ē deep and hold 10 wide shallow frames.Ē  Page 18 Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey.

OK you were right, Brother Adam was technically using 10 framesÖ.but in a 12 frame box!  Thatís a big difference.  The 12 frame shallow box is where I see some problems.

Those are going to be fat combs (which is good), but most of the shallow box will in reality contain honey which will make it FEEL like a 12 frame box when you go to lift it.  With the center of gravity further from your body, it makes for a longer lever arm and there will be a higher torque on your back.  My back is fine today; I donít want to screw it up for tomorrow!

My plan at the moment is to go with a shallow box that is 16 1/2Ē wide (or less) and fill it with 9 frames.  This will keep the weight down but there may be some negative consequences too.  Iím not sure. 
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rail
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« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2012, 08:14:47 PM »

What kind of negative consequences are thinking of?

Do you have Eugene Killion's "Honey in the Comb"?  Look at his set up, 10 frame brood chamber and with 8 frame supers.
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Sirach
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« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2012, 02:19:44 AM »

What kind of negative consequences are thinking of?

Do you have Eugene Killion's "Honey in the Comb"?  Look at his set up, 10 frame brood chamber and with 8 frame supers.


When you have 10 frames in brood and same dimensions in the suuper, 9 frames in super is proper. In 8 frames super  (-2) cells are too long and it makes much damage to combs when extracted. Not good idea.

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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2012, 09:18:56 AM »

BlueBee,

Video of poly-hives in use! The last time I researched, these hives are still in production and for sale.

Beekeeping by Rotation System

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Sirach
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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2012, 12:31:10 PM »

Video of poly-hives in use! The last time I researched, these hives are still in production and for sale.

Good video with a lot of interesting beekeeping  grin worth watching

For a few months ago I sold some hives in that size, the oldest box was made in 1971, the model is called segeberger.
They are of good quality, but cost more,personally I don't like that they have a bevelled edge that crush bees and they have the bee space under the frame. Also the smaller fame size doesn't fit the rest of my bee hives/yards.
But if you move your hives allot they are stable and will not leak bees under transport.

mvh edward  tongue
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BlueBee
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« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2012, 12:37:43 AM »

Yeah, I really liked that video too.  What a nice bee hive design and an amazing woman to boot.  She throws around those deeps like theyíre feather weights and works the bees without a veil wearing sandals!  Really kind of makes me feel like a weenie and a wimp. embarassed  Can you believe anybody would work bees in Sandals of all things?  Anytime I ever get a bee trapped, it stings. 

This is the video I 'borrowed' the plastic sheet/foil inner cover idea from.  I like the way the poly boxes fit together to keep the rain out and for transporting.  Iíve had some real messes transporting my homemade poly hives.  Real messes. 

Edward, I hear you about crushing bees between those boxes.  If you want to really build a bee crusher, make a hive with walls that are 50mm thick.  Crush, crush, crush. Sad  Itís like a bee crushing machine  evil


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edward
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« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2012, 05:28:22 AM »

If you want to really build a bee crusher, make a hive with walls that are 50mm thick.  Crush, crush, crush. Sad  Itís like a bee crushing machine  evil

If you have  wide hive walls that are flat it not a problem, you put one corner on the hive and slide the next box on, the bees will bee pushed out of the way, and slowly closing the last gap in a small triangle and you wont crush that many bees  Wink

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2012, 06:32:36 AM »

Langstroth's idea is to add more space vertically, not horizontaly. Put another box over you brood box.

langstroth was into insulation...  I 'm with langstroth on this,  nest height above entrance (or highest vent) +insulation =warmth (reduction in heat loss).
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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