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Author Topic: Derekm's Hive  (Read 16599 times)
edward
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« Reply #180 on: December 11, 2012, 08:02:50 AM »

yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B

You could do it on a rainy day.

mvh edward  tongue
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edward
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« Reply #181 on: December 11, 2012, 08:34:33 AM »

yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B

I asked my colleagues this question .
how Bees behave in the north when it is light 24 hours a day?Do they rest or is it full speed all the time and if so, how does it affect the Bees and harvest.?

"The bees in the north are controlled by the temperature more than the light, if it gets a little cool in the evening they go home.
But it may be that they draw virtually around the clock when it's warm nights, and it is wonderful.

What's more in the north there is a much more diverse flora than in the south, so there are always plants from early spring to late autumn."

"they fly as long as it's hot and there's something in it .... During the raspberries flow they fly 22 of 24 hours a really impressive sight ..."
"Which should mean that sugars are higher in plants in the north compared to the south of Sweden."

mvh edward  tongue
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derekm
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« Reply #182 on: December 11, 2012, 12:04:21 PM »

I own some of those, kept bees in them over winter and and have performed thermal measurements on them.

So Derek, how did those Finnish hives compare to your homemade super hive in your thermal measurements?

Does their polystyrene have a tough enough surface to prevent wax moths and ants from boring through them?

I kind of like the idea of an open screen on the bottom in the winter IF I had snow is piled up around the bottom protecting it from drafts.  I did have 1 nuc die off last week that had an open screen bottom and no snow protection.

My hives are substantially better, I hope to publish the figures in paper soon.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #183 on: December 11, 2012, 06:23:44 PM »

Be sure to let us know where to find your paper when you get in published! applause applause applause  It sounds like it will be very interesting.  I checked my various designs again today and based upon my crude measurements and visual observations, your ďheat bubbleĒ concept/design is much warmer than the other designs Iím experimenting with.  Our average temp has been below 0C for some time now and most of the hives have well defined clusters at this point; except for the heat bubble ones.  They really arenít in cluster yet IF they are insulated well enough (38mm) and IF the volume of the hive isnít bigger than the bees. 

The only real concern I see at this point is condensation.  I may try to post some photos later tonight if time permits.  There isnít a drop of condensation on my hives with a small top entrance whereas there is very noticeable condensation in the heat bubble designs.  The bees donít appear to be licking it up either, but Iím not watching them 24-7.  grin
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Finski
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« Reply #184 on: December 12, 2012, 03:02:56 AM »

yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B


I asked my colleagues this question .
how Bees behave in the north when it is light 24 hours a day?Do they rest or is it full speed all the time and if so, how does it affect the Bees and harvest.?

"The bees in the north are controlled by the temperature more than the light, if it gets a little cool in the evening they go home.
But it may be that they draw virtually around the clock when it's warm nights, and it is wonderful.

What's more in the north there is a much more diverse flora than in the south, so there are always plants from early spring to late autumn."

"they fly as long as it's hot and there's something in it .... During the raspberries flow they fly 22 of 24 hours a really impressive sight ..."
"Which should mean that sugars are higher in plants in the north compared to the south of Sweden."

mvh edward  tongue


It depends how you read the text of Edward.

I phoned to a beekeeper on Arctic Circle and he said that bee may fly 24 hours in a day but it is extremely rare.
Last summer was so cold that hives did not get Honey at all. They stopped brooding.

My brother kept hives 20 years in Sweden PiteŚ. The North is not a paradise to bees.

Here is some or our beekeepers on map. The most south point is 60 degree latitude and the north most is on Polar Circle 66 degree.


http://www.hunajantuottajat.fi/


Vegetation is not more diverge in North. It is sure. I do not blame guys behind the back of God , if even strawberries there produce honey.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

One psychiatrist told in TV that in Lapplan North folks are such that they overstate their sayings, and if someone gets a 2 meter long pike (fish) , let it be and don't go to measure it.

"fly 22 of 24 hours a really impressive sight"  I wonder why, but life in north is not easy.

.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 03:22:47 AM by Finski » Logged

.
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derekm
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« Reply #185 on: December 12, 2012, 06:24:19 AM »

nice and warm


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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #186 on: December 12, 2012, 09:10:26 AM »

HmmmmÖ.. I thought somebody said it doesnít get cold in the UKÖ.

Are those 2 hives on the left side of the photo the commercial hives from Finland?  I gotta say, that looks like more volume than I would want to winter in with 40mm thick poly hives.  I think your hive is a more appropriate volume.
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derekm
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« Reply #187 on: December 12, 2012, 10:54:45 AM »

HmmmmÖ.. I thought somebody said it doesnít get cold in the UKÖ.

Are those 2 hives on the left side of the photo the commercial hives from Finland?  I gotta say, that looks like more volume than I would want to winter in with 40mm thick poly hives.  I think your hive is a more appropriate volume.

no they are my hives (earlier revs) with supers and feed ekes (shims).  I'm not worried about brood in the super.  remember british nationals so not that big.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #188 on: December 12, 2012, 12:37:15 PM »

Looks like some nice hoar frost.  We get some beautiful photos of it here a few times each winter.

I winter my big hives in single poly boxes now instead of multiple stories.  I just donít see the need for multiple stories since they do great in singles.  I do have some double decker nucs this winter, but Iím now leery of that design even for nucs. 

Are any of your hives instrumented this winter?  If so, what type of system do you have?
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ScituateMA
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« Reply #189 on: October 02, 2014, 12:06:07 AM »

As I know you are an innovative beekeeper, bluebee.
Do you have any new designs with poly hives ? Any pictures that you can share with us?
I use foam salmon boxes, keep my nucs in them. They seems very happy
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BlueBee
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« Reply #190 on: October 03, 2014, 05:52:58 AM »

You know, I miss Finski  grin
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BlueBee
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« Reply #191 on: October 03, 2014, 05:57:33 AM »

Well, I tend to get ridiculed every time I talk about my polystyrene hives so I donít bother to reply too often.  I have tried many different insulated designs in real life and itís pretty clear what works well and what doesnít; at least in my cold continental climate.  My goal is to maximize the odds of my bees coming through winter healthy; not trying to trap every milliwatt of heat.  It would be nice if one could achieve both things at the same time, but in my experiments that didnít work out.

I have found over and over again that a bottom only entrance is a prescription for disaster in a foam hive.  Might not always fail, but it turns the design into a high maintenance problem for many many reasons.  Would a bottom only entrance maximize heat retention; obviously yes.  But you risk so many other problems when trying to obsess on just the heat retention aspect of bee health.   Many home owners discovered unforeseen problems when they tried to super insulate their own homes.  Thereís a point at which things can become unhealthy.  A healthy home is more than one dimension. 

I prefer only a small top entrance in the winter.  That entrance is closed more as the winter sets in, summer bees die off, and it gets colder.  By Christmas, weíre down to about 9mm x 100mm; depending upon the size of the hive.  Bottom only designs will work too, but there are just more problems with them.

In Michigan, I have found that 40mm thick polystyrene seems to work best.  Iíve got a lot (about 50) 25mm thick nucs that do pretty good most winters, but a really cold spell is too much for them.  The 40mm thick foam handles as much cold as we get in Michigan and itís easier to work with than the 50mm (2inch) stuff.   

Thereís various creative ways to make foam hives as a DIYer; but they can be time consuming to build.  I use polystyrene sheets (4íx8í) sold in the big box stores for home insulation.  Here it is commonly sold up to 50mm thick.  We can buy polyiso insulation boards up to 3.5Ē from building supply companies, but thatís overkill here.  I would go with electric heat before I would go with 3Ē+ thick stock.  Thick mating surfaces and thermal time constants bring their own set of problems.

I have tried numerous boxes made of pure foam.  The bees WILL eventually chew through such boxes unless they are faced with a durable interior surface.  Paint is not sufficient!   Iíve tried it.   Most processed boards (like plywood) will mold up if not painted or polyed.  Hardboard works well.

May try to link in some more photos when Iím not so busy.  Iím sure there are some on here somewhere. 
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derekm
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« Reply #192 on: October 03, 2014, 05:19:28 PM »

....

I have found over and over again that a bottom only entrance is a prescription for disaster in a foam hive.  Might not always fail, but it turns the design into a high maintenance problem for many many reasons.  Would a bottom only entrance maximize heat retention; obviously yes.  But you risk so many other problems when trying to obsess on just the heat retention aspect of bee health.   Many home owners discovered unforeseen problems when they tried to super insulate their own homes.  Thereís a point at which things can become unhealthy.  A healthy home is more than one dimension. 
....

What problems are those?
I dont have any problems
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
ScituateMA
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« Reply #193 on: October 03, 2014, 07:50:32 PM »

Bluebee, I always pay close attention on what you share with us regarding foam boxes, heating etc.
Let me share what I experince with foam boxes and bees.
 I use big salmon boxes. They are free and I can obtain tens of them. I did not paint them. I use them as nuc boxes. Some started chewing them some not. I guess if population is high then they start chewing. I thought one reason is  that sun light goes through box and inside of the hive is not realy dark. Since you say rven if painted still they chew, then we can eliminate this.
In my case then they chew, they chew from the front up, close to lid area. Is this something you also have experienced?
as I said I use used foam boxes and some has clear tape on them around.  When they chew from inside to outside, they could not chew that clear tape. Do you think if I apply clear tape on all inside surfaces,  can I eliminate this problem?
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ScituateMA
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« Reply #194 on: October 03, 2014, 10:14:52 PM »

You know, I miss Finski  grin

I read almost all of Finski s post. I wish he came back !
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derekm
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« Reply #195 on: October 04, 2014, 01:42:14 AM »

Bluebee, I always pay close attention on what you share with us regarding foam boxes, heating etc.
Let me share what I experince with foam boxes and bees.
 I use big salmon boxes. They are free and I can obtain tens of them. I did not paint them. I use them as nuc boxes. Some started chewing them some not. I guess if population is high then they start chewing. I thought one reason is  that sun light goes through box and inside of the hive is not realy dark. Since you say rven if painted still they chew, then we can eliminate this.
In my case then they chew, they chew from the front up, close to lid area. Is this something you also have experienced?
as I said I use used foam boxes and some has clear tape on them around.  When they chew from inside to outside, they could not chew that clear tape. Do you think if I apply clear tape on all inside surfaces,  can I eliminate this prob lem?
They will chew through duct tape. However aluminium foil tape stops them, even the thinnest kind
But it's expensive . Try wallpaper painted with gloss paint. They don't chew correx / corrodex 2mm black correx is very cheap and does not rot. Line your boxes with that?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 02:04:30 AM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #196 on: October 04, 2014, 03:47:52 AM »

Yeah, itís when the population gets high that they start trying to chew the foam.  Iíve got some pure foam boxes where they chewed out half a wall of the foam and built comb right on the foam!  I use plastic sheets (painters drop cloth stuff) for my inner covers and I didnít think they could chew through that, but low and behold, they have chewed through the 3.5mil thick stuff in spots.  I have moved to 6mils now and havenít had that problem again.  My guess is the clear tape, or contact paper, has a good chance of preventing the chewing if you can keep it from falling off the foam.  The first areas theyíll chew are around the entrance.  As the population gets bigger, evidently they would like a bigger entrance and theyíll chew to make it bigger.  They also like to chew the top covers which is why I went to a plastic sheet for an inner cover.  Works well because you can peak in on the bees and it prevents them from gluing the foam top down. 

Actually a much bigger problem with unfaced foam is the wax moths.  If/when they take over a box, they'll completely destroy the foam because they can burrow through just about anything.  Foam to them is like a hot knife to butter. Sad  They'll burrow and tunnel all through the box if it isn't cladded with something tough on the interior side.  I've gone with 1/8" hardboard cladding to stop the moths and chewing.  It's cheap, dependable, glues easily to foam, sticks reliably, not a thermal bridge, and holds up to the moisture fine.  I've even tried the hardboard for exterior cladding, but the boxes tend to get a little bulky and way more time consuming to build.
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ScituateMA
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« Reply #197 on: October 04, 2014, 10:39:50 PM »

Should I increase the thickness of my boxes ? They are 30mm, I can double the thickness
my climate zone is 6b
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BlueBee
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« Reply #198 on: October 05, 2014, 02:49:31 AM »

Iíve lived in Metro Boston (Westboro) and your winters are milder than we have in Michigan.  The bees also get more chances for cleansing flights out there when the wind comes in from the ocean, or up the coast.  I would stick with your 30mm boxes for now and see how they do.  Really thick boxes bring their own set of problems.  Like lots of bees getting squished due to the thick mating surfaces.  Those flatted bees eventually build up and all of a sudden your ďheat bubbleĒ is leaking heat through all the mating surfaces. grin

I've got some older boxes that are 50mm (2") thick and they work fine, but its just over kill in zone 5a (mid Mich).  IMO 40mm (1.5") is optimal for my climate, but other boxes will work too; even pure wood!  
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edward
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« Reply #199 on: October 05, 2014, 09:21:40 AM »

Here is a link to instructions for making insulated wooden boxes that have been used successfully for many years i Sweden.
http://ribiof.com/borje/Bibo/Lada13.html
There are Pictures so you get the idea.

Here every one ventilates their hives with bottom ventilation through the Winter successfully, no one would Think of roof ventilation under the Winter.

I will post a few types of bottom ventilating solutions later.

tongue
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