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Author Topic: Derekm's Hive  (Read 21127 times)

Offline T Beek

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2012, 07:41:25 AM »
Absolutely and thanks!  Wish it would happen more often to be honest.  To often folks are just put down for their input rather than debated and that is a shame.  Too many posters have just disappeared after repeated attacks.  There is a definite lack of common courtesy permeating and percolating by some and it sometimes requires a referee.  So Thanks again for being there!

However, It is most unfortunate that some feel they are exempted from any rules at all and get away w/ the same type of infantile slamming of others over and over, effectively reducing any attempt to have meaningful dialogue. (the BeeMaster Pets, if you will).

I'm still glad someone is watching though.
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline edward

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2012, 11:18:38 AM »
Absolutely and thanks!  Wish it would happen more often to be honest.  To often folks are just put down for their input rather than debated and that is a shame.  Too many posters have just disappeared after repeated attacks.  There is a definite lack of common courtesy permeating and percolating by some and it sometimes requires a referee.  So Thanks again for being there! However, It is most unfortunate that some feel they are exempted from any rules at all and get away w/ the same type of infantile slamming of others over and over, effectively reducing any attempt to have meaningful dialogue. (the BeeMaster Pets, if you will)I'm still glad someone is watching though.

I think that you forgot to look in the mirror this morning  ;) Maybee you should take stock of your last posts  :-\

edward  :-P

Offline T Beek

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2012, 12:34:12 PM »
Pot calling the kettle black?  Don't like the "shoulds" best to keep them to yourself.  :-D

But if you want to play....................... ;)
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline edward

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2012, 02:31:36 PM »
But if you want to play....... ;)

No, not really.

I visit this site to learn more about beekeeping like most of the users.
It makes for boring reading when a post turns into who got in the last punch under the belt  :-\

This is my last comment, so feel free to get the last punch in if you need to and it makes you feel better  :-\

Back to promoting better beekeeping and the understanding of it, or at least we can try to understand what the bees are doing in there hive.

mvh edward  :-P

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2012, 02:45:02 PM »
Bee Warmer or Ice Cooler?  You be the judge:

Here’s the test subjects:  a single story poly hive, a double decker poly hive, and a double decker wood hive.  All holding medium frames and similar amounts of bees.


 

Here’s the test data:

Single Story 6 frame medium nuc in poly box = 57F/14C inside
Double Decker medium nuc in poly box = 45F/7C
Double Decker medium nuc in WOOD box = 48/9C





So which of these configurations is the warmest and which is even COOLER than a wood hive?

Don't get me wrong, I am strong proponent of poly hives.  My bees have done absolutely fantastic with 38mm+ of polystyrene.  I’m not putting down the idea of insulation, I’m just pointing out there are situations where insulation can work against you in a bee hive.  Namely if you don’t have enough insulation or the volume of the box is too large or you don’t have enough bees in the box.  This is not some new revelation on my part; the science of heat transfer was developed by Isaac Newton (from the UK) over 300 years ago.  http://www.eoht.info/page/Newton%E2%80%99s+law+of+cooling   

Offline T Beek

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2012, 02:53:12 PM »
Another excellent post from BlueBee X:X. 

Very interesting results.........so far ;)

Please keep us posted.
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline edward

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2012, 03:18:55 PM »
A healthy hive will adjust to whatever house they have as a hive.

Barns, walls, trees, oil drums, old chests, the list is endless, even wooden and poly hive will do.

To keep the hive warm they need energy, when they consume sugar/syrup/honey under a long period there bowels fill up :-X. The more they have to work to keep the hive warm and if the winters are long the greater the risk that they will have a fatal accident and the hive will become full of crap  :-X

Cleaning hives after this is one of the worst jobs as a beekeeper  :-x

More insulation less feed consumption = healthier bees , and lower cost for feed for the beekeeper.

mvh edward  :-P

Offline edward

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #107 on: December 07, 2012, 06:10:16 AM »
Bee Warmer or Ice Cooler?  You be the judge:
Here’s the test subjects:  a single story poly hive, a double decker poly hive, and a double decker wood hive.  All holding medium frames and similar amounts of bees.So which of these configurations is the warmest and which is even COOLER than a wood hive?

I think you are measuring the temperature in the wrong place, you should measure inside the mass of bees.

You are also mixing wooden and plastic frames and these lead warmth and cold at different temperatures.

Another parameter you should consider is weight and how much honey/sugar store that they need to use to sustain there optimal temperature inside the hive.

mvh edward  :-P

Offline Finski

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2012, 08:16:22 AM »
.
Bluebee disturbs his hives. They are not in wintering mode. Cluster temp may rise up to 42C it that style.

Cluster temperatures has been measured decades ago and it is well know the heat system of cluster.

awfull

1) http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html

2) Endothermic heat production in honeybee winter clusters
Anton Stabentheiner*, Helga Pressl, Thomas Papst, Norbert Hrassnigg and Karl Crailsheim
Institut für Zoologie, Universität Graz, Universitätsplatz 2, A-8010 Graz, Austria
*Author for correspondence (e-mail: anton.stabentheiner@uni-graz.at)
Accepted 17 October 2002

3)
[PDF]  
The Biology and Management of Colonies in Winter - CAPA Bees


www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf



« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 08:30:37 AM by Finski »
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Offline derekm

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2012, 08:32:36 AM »
bluebee,
  You need a remote means of measuring the temp at different levels inside the cluster area and outside it without the measurement  process altering the readings i.e with the roof on.
inside  the cluster to measure the activity of th ebees,  outside the cluster  to see the contribution of the hive. I'm moving from thermocouples to digital  temperature  acquisition system  that I have made  with typically 16 measurement point per hive but it could go as high as 8 per frame
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2012, 09:50:14 AM »
.

Look here

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8458

Heat regulation of Apis mellifera during winter


Like this




Hive temp on inner cover during winter.
It tells cluster movement from bottom to up
http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/colony_temperature.htm


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« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 10:04:30 AM by Finski »
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Offline derekm

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2012, 10:44:06 AM »
.

Look here

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8458

...

I've read all those before, they all deal with bees in a very high heat loss enviroment. All very very much higher than the tree nest. There is very little research availalble on bees in lowheat  loss environments
It would be rash to say that nothing changes in bee behaviour if you reduce the heat loss to a 1/5th  or a 1/10th of those experiments.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2012, 10:57:22 AM »


I've read all those before, they all deal with bees in a very high heat loss enviroment. All very very much higher than the tree nest. There is very little research availalble on bees in lowheat  loss environments
 

Here is your home place's forecast
http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/weather/

I wonder how are you able to speak about lowheat environment. YOu ponds do not even get ice cover there.
Your hives get pollen from nature in January. My hives get in May. From where that wisdom all comes?

You have nothing to tell to these beekepers

http://www.wunderground.com/weather-forecast/FI/Jyvaskyla.html

Next monday weather
day night

-16 C | -24 °C




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« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:15:36 AM by Finski »
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Offline BlueBee

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2012, 11:11:00 AM »
Yes, I need to instrument some hives just as soon as I get about 14 other things done first.  Realistically it just isn’t going to happen.  The best I’m going to be able to do is my crude measurements and visual observations.  You can get a pretty good sense of how warm it is in there by looking at the cluster.  If they are tight and barely moving, we know the hive is on the cold side.  If the bees are barely in cluster and roaming around, we know it’s above 60F/15C.

Finski is right.  The bees can definitely generate a lot of heat when disturbed.  But I know a disturbed bee when I see one.  They weren’t disturbed the other day.  The warmest hive was the “heat bubble” design with 38mm of foam.  The bees were just calmly walking around; not even in cluster.  Actually my small mating nucs with 50mm worth of foam were a little more active, so maybe they were the warmest.  That reminds me I do need to give them some more honey balls.

The tops of my hives are using a plastic sheet/foil which the bees glue to the hive.  That is then covered by an exterior top cover.  As long as I don’t break the plastic foil seal, the bees pay no attention when I just look in at them.  Like Brother Adam said, light seems to have a calming effect on bees.

Offline derekm

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2012, 11:46:51 AM »


I've read all those before, they all deal with bees in a very high heat loss enviroment. All very very much higher than the tree nest. There is very little research availalble on bees in lowheat  loss environments
 

Here is your home place's forecast
http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/weather/

I wonder how are you able to speak about lowheat environment. YOu ponds do not even get ice cover there.
Your hives get pollen from nature in January. My hives get in May. From where that wisdom all comes?
You have nothing to tell to these beekepers

http://www.wunderground.com/weather-forecast/FI/Jyvaskyla.html

Next monday weather
day night

-16 C | -24 °C
I have education and lived on days other than today and in other places than here. Apart from also  having a supply of liquid nitrogen ... you can make great pure Gin ice cubes when you are not performing low temperture experiments

btw now you are attacking someone based on where they now live ... you've tried nationality, number of hives, honey yield, now home climate... Should I attack you because you dont know the definition of the scientific word concentration ?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 01:35:55 PM by derekm »
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Alessandro

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2012, 12:37:34 PM »
About Filland
Do you move the hives to get more honey and more money?
Regard
Alessandro

Offline Finski

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2012, 02:05:50 PM »
About Filland
Do you move the hives to get more honey and more money?


Yes, it is only reason. No one pays for pollination here. We have so much natural pollinators that bees are not needed.
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2012, 02:25:35 PM »
That brings up an interesting point to ponder.  Do we really need migratory beeking?  Are those paying for the service 'always' getting their money's worth or just convinced their crops will do better w/ honeybees brought in for pollination? 

I don't know, I'm asking.  Our indigenous bees do a fantastic job around here but we are blessed w/ excellent location.
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline Finski

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2012, 03:05:35 PM »
 Do we really need migratory beeking?  ?  

I don't know, I'm asking.

You do not know? So you do not know much about beekeeping.
To many in this forum beekeeping is only a tool that you may fill you lonely days with discussing all king of stupid things.

Honey industry and honey production needs.  To catch and release beekeepers honey is a pure nuisance, so called "production waste".
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Offline Alessandro

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Re: Derekm's Hive
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2012, 04:21:24 PM »

Hi,
a friend of mine who is a beekeeper had gone to Finland, but he did not see flowers for the bees, but  I've read on this forum that  he' s wrong.
How many times do you move the hives every year?
Regards
Alessandro