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Author Topic: Derekm's Hive  (Read 12234 times)
Finski
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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2012, 11:44:40 AM »

.
Stupid beeks kill hives, not cold or moisture.


You can arrange that they do not  kill hives. It is just you who arrange things.

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CapnChkn
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« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2012, 11:53:06 AM »

Well, the days seem to be getting short...

Hei laari laari laa
vaari muorin saa
kaikuvi suloinen suomenmaa
=Hello bipolar bipolar quality
grandpa granny gets
resonant sweet Suomenmaa

Use the FARCE Luke...
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"Thinking is like sin, them that doesn't is scairt of it, and them that does gets to liking it so much they can't quit!"  -Josh Billings.
Finski
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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2012, 12:00:20 PM »

Well, the days seem to be getting short...


]Hei laari laari laa..........................................lal lal lal lal jodling
vaari muorin saa...........................................grandpa gets grandma  
kaikuvi suloinen suomenmaa...........................echo sounds over lovely Finland


Original :

Honkain keskellä mökkini seisoo
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2012, 12:08:13 PM »

Ha Ha Ha!

Direct translation from Google Translate.  This makes better sense.

Seems the days are STILL getting pretty short...
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"Thinking is like sin, them that doesn't is scairt of it, and them that does gets to liking it so much they can't quit!"  -Josh Billings.
Finski
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2012, 12:22:27 PM »

Ha Ha Ha!

Direct translation from Google Translate.  This makes better sense.

Seems the days are STILL getting pretty short...


Here is the graph of daylengt in south and in north.
Black vertical line is today.
In Helsinki day lengt is now 6 hours, and in north 3 hours
.
I put snow tires under car today. In December we get penalty if we do not use them.


http://www.helatek.fi/Pituus.aspx
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BlueBee
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2012, 01:37:06 PM »

It sounds like these beauties in Finland were also well insulated but they failed too.  Why was that?



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Finski
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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2012, 01:59:13 PM »

It sounds like these beauties in Finland were also well insulated but they failed too.  Why was that?




They did not failed! They lived their own life cycle in that time in those materials. After war were had even lack of nails when folks build new houses. Lots of material was recycled. Many built house from old timber material of from used bricks.



Migrative beekeeping is the basic of honey production. You move hives there where is the yield.

It may be that old stuff was abandoned when guys started use cars.

We are able to insulate what ever. That is not basic idea in beekeeping, never been.

Varroa sweeped away toykeepers and Lanstroth arrived instead. Many made their own insulated Langstroths.
We got too splended queens at that time and they cannot live in those old small cottages.

Typical insulated langstroth box is douple ply wall  (boat ply) and for ecample glass wool or stone wool inside,( but never sheep wool!)



 Here is typical self made or byed plyhive with insulations.

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Finski
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2012, 02:14:51 PM »

.
Here are self made  insulated hives .

Actually it is forbidden to produce "ecological honey" in plastic hives, even if honey is sold in plastic tubes.

Wooden insulated hives. If you try to bye them, they are 3 times so expencive as polybox.
They are so called hand work and cannot compete with plastic machines.

But if you do not count your hours, you may do them. But ply is expencive too.

Look, the guy uses only medium boxes

This is start of summer. Hives are small and dandelion is in bloom.






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BlueBee
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2012, 02:19:05 PM »

OK, yes I see how those nice looking Long Hives would not be good for migratory bee keeping.  Good point.

That is funny, you can’t produce “ecological honey” in plastic boxes but you can sell it in plastic jars!  You know, Finland sounds a lot like the USA.  We’ve got some strange laws here too.

I’m going to stick with the poly boxes.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2012, 02:21:03 PM »

Questions for Brother Adam :
When did  you put the insulation on? 
Insulation effectiveness is all about detail.
How air tight was the insulation?

Brother Adam didn’t provide a photo of his insulation setup, but he describes putting 4 of his hives back to back and building a bigger box around the group and then packing the space between the inner hives and outer box with 6” to 8” of packing materials.  The whole thing formed a big ‘cubical block’ as he put it.  He got the idea from some American beeks.  Based on his description, I would guess he didn’t move the hives into this wintering box until sometime in the fall.

Since Brother Adam used bottom entrances, it sounds like his insulation experiment may have been very similar to yours from a thermal perspective.  Namely he would have been creating your “heat bubble” for his bees by just sticking with a bottom entrance.  You’ve obviously got more modern materials in your design, but his 6” to 8” (15cm to 20cm) of packing in a double walled setup should have had minimum air infiltration losses unless he was a very sloppy builder.  I don’t think he was sloppy.

I still think there is some critical variable that resulted in his failure vs your success.

Brother Adam says this on page 56: “We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health.  Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees”.  huh
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BlueBee
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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2012, 02:23:46 PM »

Look, the guy uses only medium boxes
Finski , I seem to recall you talking about switching over to all mediums too?  Are you going to do that?  Do they make your poly hives in medium size?
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Finski
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« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2012, 02:28:49 PM »



Brother Adam didn't provide a photo of his insulation setup,

Brother Adam says this on page 56: We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health.  Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on Bee's.  huh


Yes but, don't you understand that Brother Adam knew nothing about cold. It is sure that he did not need snow shovel there. He stay in his cabin one day and snow melted away.

 He started his beekeeping 100 years ago. Can't you forget that guy-


Three the most vain thing in the world

1) Popes balls
2) Nun's nipples
3) English knowledge about insulation

The Engish are accustomed to cold because they have not insulated their houses. Yes, I have been there.
I have asked them to put second hand woolen shirts on beehives.





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BlueBee
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« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2012, 11:59:16 PM »

Hmmmm….

1.  Wasn’t Brother Adam actually German?

2.  He had 75 YEARS of bee keeping EXPERIENCE.  Aren’t we supposed to learn from the more experienced bee keepers?  huh 

3.  "He was unsurpassed as a breeder of bees. He talked to them, he stroked them. He brought to the hives a calmness that, according to those who saw him at work, the sensitive bees responded to."  The Economist, Sept. 14th 1996 (source Wikipedia)

Finski did you visit Brother Adam in the UK?
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Finski
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« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2012, 12:07:42 AM »

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No. I have better to do in my life
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BlueBee
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« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2012, 12:11:32 AM »

So Finski, what did you do in England   Smiley

Derekm, I have another concern with your bottom vent box and I’m wondering if you have seen this problem yet?  The bees will chase wax moth larvae from their brood box into that vent box.  If there is wax debris in that box, the wax moths can usually live there unmolested by the bees.  That isn’t a big problem if you have plenty of bees to keep them in check, but I have a feeling they might still make a mess of your foil facing as they pupate?  Thoughts?  
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little john
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« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2012, 07:05:50 AM »

Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php

What I like about this particular site is that the guy doesn't just theorise - but he goes to the trouble of running trials, and then publishing the data.

...

His work while good intentioned has a number of flaws as it seems to assume this

"And one of beekeeping axiom states:"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."

This is a common misconception that leads to allsort of false conclusions.  What can kill bees (or humans for that matter) :
Excessive heat loss (hypothermia)
starvation
dehydration.
That false maxim :"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."
can lead one to kill bees  by either hypothermia and/or dehydration.



It occurs to me that as the upper entrance vs. lower entrance debate is never-ending (I, like many Europeans happen to favour lower, seems that many Americans favour upper) - and so the most non-anthropomorphic approach would be to make entrances (say, single 20mm holes - just for the winter) at Top, Bottom and Middle positions, then block them off with cow dung, cardboard or similar chewable material, leaving (say) a 3mm hole to give the girls a clue. In that way, the bees will themselves open or close the entrance holes, as is seen with the old technique of skep beekeeping, to regulate their own hive conditions as they see fit.

If you look at: http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeeping_questions.php you'll see that question 7 is an example of where the bees were allowed to decide for themselves where the best place was for entrance & ventilation.

LJ
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Finski
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« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2012, 08:02:55 AM »


where the bees were allowed to decide for themselves where the best place was for entrance & ventilation.

LJ


 the beekeeper does not know what to do.... WOW And beeks in America make controversy than in  Europe. And the British arrange concensus poll, because they are not American neither European. They want their own creative alternative.

Their favorit "listen to bees" . It is is just disturbing winter sleep.  heheh

.
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derekm
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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2012, 05:52:23 AM »

So Finski, what did you do in England   Smiley

Derekm, I have another concern with your bottom vent box and I’m wondering if you have seen this problem yet?  The bees will chase wax moth larvae from their brood box into that vent box.  If there is wax debris in that box, the wax moths can usually live there unmolested by the bees.  That isn’t a big problem if you have plenty of bees to keep them in check, but I have a feeling they might still make a mess of your foil facing as they pupate?  Thoughts?  

how much wax debris will accumulate on a 45 degree slope?(one of the reasons its that shape)  Thats being kept clean by by bees that are kept warm? The bees can keep the entire hive warm(16C and above) and I have observed them doing so on a similar hive with outside temp at -15C .
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
derekm
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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2012, 06:01:09 AM »



It occurs to me that as the upper entrance vs. lower entrance debate is never-ending (I, like many Europeans happen to favour lower, seems that many Americans favour upper) - and so the most non-anthropomorphic approach would be to make entrances (say, single 20mm holes - just for the winter) at Top, Bottom and Middle positions, then block them off with cow dung, cardboard or similar chewable material, leaving (say) a 3mm hole to give the girls a clue. In that way, the bees will themselves open or close the entrance holes, as is seen with the old technique of skep beekeeping, to regulate their own hive conditions as they see fit.

If you look at: http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeeping_questions.php you'll see that question 7 is an example of where the bees were allowed to decide for themselves where the best place was for entrance & ventilation.

LJ


The top entrance bottom entrance debate is resolved every time a swarm decides on a nest site
I suggest you read the Honeybee democracy by T Seely.

The bees prefer bottom entrances... and they like to seal their nests. These facts are tested by peer reviewed experiments
The bees instinctively know the Physics of heat ...
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
RHBee
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That's my pooch.


« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2012, 06:13:21 AM »

Where I live would there be any good reason to insulate? I believe I will have more issues with heat than cold. Very mild winters, very hot and humid summers. Just asking.

[quote author=Finski link=topic=39518.msg333648#msg333648 date=13540

Three the most vain thing in the world

1) Popes balls
2) Nun's nipples
3) English knowledge about insulation

[/quote]


I don't care who you are that is just funny. Finski you got a way with words, don't hold back tell us how you feel.
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Later,
Ray
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