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Author Topic: Derekm's Hive  (Read 15933 times)
BlueBee
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« on: November 21, 2012, 04:52:38 PM »

I didnít want to hijack adamants dead out thread, but I was curious about the state of your current foam design.  So I thought I would start a new thread.

Derekm, your hive looks it belongs in my kitchen. Smiley  Almost looks like stainless steel from a distance, doesnít it.  It's a nice looking hive indeed; kind of looks like a modern piece of art.  Itís nice to have somebody so focused on the engineering/physics of a hive interacting with us. applause    



What are you facing the inside surface with these days to keep the bees from chewing it?  It looks like your polyurethane sheets are foil faced.  Is that on both sides?  I donít believe we have that brand here in the Midwest USA.  

Are you still using your baffled vent box on the bottom?  I liked that idea, but it just seemed like too much work for me, so I just went the lazy route and made all air exchanges through the bottom entrance in my latest nuc design.

How about glue?  Are you using polyurethane glue or something else?

That looks like about 50mm thick foam from here?

Nice job!
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AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2012, 06:18:20 PM »

You can still see fingerprints on the stainless.  (to quote a mother in my life)   grin

Cool looking hive.
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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2012, 10:25:56 PM »

.
It looks fine so long as ants find the hive.

I use to move hives to outer pastures when hives have 4-5 boxes. I make it alone.
Migrative beekeeping is a hart of big yields.

This summer I transported a hive to woods. I looked what heck is happening in the bottom? European's biggest ant species had found the insulated floor.

I took insulations off and there was quite big ant colony. I made a fire in the woods and burned insulations and ant nest.

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« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 10:36:54 PM by Finski » Logged

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BlueBee
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2012, 10:46:31 PM »

Good point Finski, thatís why I like listening to your 50 years of experience.  Unfortunately I learned the ant lesson the hard way. Sad



We donít have many options for commercially built Poly hives in the USA, and none that are as insulated as the extruded polystyrene foam board we use in building our houses (yes, it is now the law to insulate new construction in the USA.)  So if you want a super insulated hive here, you pretty much have to build it from scratch.
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Finski
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2012, 12:33:30 AM »

.
No one need super insulated  hive.

It is enough that the hive has food from Autumn to early summer.
Good build up is one advantage that the hive become in time to catch yield.

 If you have 20 hives, you must move them from pasture to pasture to get yield.
It saves you not a bit if your super hives stand on backyard and pastures are overgrazed.
It is not only you who keep beehives on area.

To transport hives and boxes  here and there, it is an ergonometric issue.


Of course, derekm's desire to find out  insulation and ventilation issues is splended to UK, but it gives nothing to Finland because those things have revieled out decades ago.

We have one guy who has 3000 hives. He manufactures polyhives and  sell them to several countries.  Another guy manufactures too and he has over 1000 hives.

It is nice to get "challenges" from a guy who has 2 years experience and perhaps extracted honey not at all from his experimental hive.

We have in Finland our own propel heads. Their favorit is  to invent new bottom boards.
I have seen them 50 years as long as I started. Their breakdown innovations have lasted 5 years and after that no one remember them. 

one guy follows nectar flow from computer and goes to exctract honey when computers says NOW!

The worst combination is stupid and busy. They make most harm in the world.

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derekm
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2012, 09:26:52 AM »

I didnít want to hijack adamants dead out thread, but I was curious about the state of your current foam design.  So I thought I would start a new thread.

Derekm, your hive looks it belongs in my kitchen. Smiley  Almost looks like stainless steel from a distance, doesnít it.  It's a nice looking hive indeed; kind of looks like a modern piece of art.  Itís nice to have somebody so focused on the engineering/physics of a hive interacting with us. applause    



What are you facing the inside surface with these days to keep the bees from chewing it?  It looks like your polyurethane sheets are foil faced.  Is that on both sides?  I donít believe we have that brand here in the Midwest USA.  

Are you still using your baffled vent box on the bottom?  I liked that idea, but it just seemed like too much work for me, so I just went the lazy route and made all air exchanges through the bottom entrance in my latest nuc design.

How about glue?  Are you using polyurethane glue or something else?

That looks like about 50mm thick foam from here?

Nice job!


Its made out of foil faced Polyisocyanuorate foam.(PIR) obtained from a local builders merchant. I use the aluminium foil tape thats used by builders to seal the foam thermally.
The grill style has been abandoned in favour of a solid floor 4" above the entrance.
While this is substantially warmer than any commercially available poly hive(and tested against a hive made in FINLAND)  and miles warmer than a wooden hive, it only just approaches the warmth of a tree nest.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
derekm
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 09:28:43 AM »

.
No one need super insulated  hive.


Tell that to the bees in tree nests...
Finns haven't worked out how warm bees are in trees.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2012, 10:07:19 AM »

.
Hei laari laari laa
vaari muorin saa
kaikuvi suloinen suomenmaa
.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 12:33:07 PM »

Interesting.  I have not seen PIR foam for sale locally.  Dow Chemical company is headquartered in Michigan.  Most foam around here is polystyrene.  We also have foil faced PU foam, but it is less common and the foil is very thin.

So some questions. Smiley  Iím not trying to be critical of your design with any of these questions, but these are just the typical FMEA type questions I ask myself before I build anything.  Even with all my FMEA thinking, I still get surprised with failures in most things I build.  LOL, such is life!

It looks like you did not apply AL tape over the bottom board edges?   Why is that?  When Iíve left foam exposed to the UV from the Sun, it breaks down.

I like the AL tape idea, we use that over here to seal up heating ducts.  However AL is a very good thermal conductor (think CPU heatsinks!).  How much does it compromise the insulation of the foam when used on mating surfaces?

Do the boxes get too slippery when using the AL tape on the mating surfaces?  Are you getting an optimal seal with no air infiltration losses?  Does the tape hold up to the weather?  Can the rain backtrack under those mating surfaces and get into the hive?  

How do you get a hive tool between boxes to break them apart?  What about handles to lift the boxes?  

Whatís the function of the inward slope on your vent box?  Why not just make it vertical?

Again, Iím not being critical of your design, just checking off my FMEA bucket list.  
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derekm
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 02:42:08 PM »

its 2mm Correx on the mating surfaces  £4 a sheet over here.
To separate just slide the hive tool between and slide it all the way round . No levering needed. The hopper idea is if a mesh floor is needed instead of solid, you dont let turbulence in but let the detritus out. Havent needed separate handles on the brood or supers . The ally floor edge bars function as handles shifting the entire unit.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 02:49:07 PM »

Interesting.  It sounds like your Correx is similar to the stuff we call corroplast over here.  The politician's use massive amounts of it for their election signs.  However I've never seen any as thin as 2mm.  That could be useful. Smiley  The stuff over here seems to be made of polyethylene and I have yet to find a glue that will bond to it.  What are you using?
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derekm
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 04:06:04 PM »

its  polyproplene. The micro abrasiionsthey do to it to allow paint to stick, gives glues a chance, epoxy or polyurethane glues work.
The 2mm stuff is used over here to protect floors during building work.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 01:52:52 AM »

Iím doing some plaster work and bought a roll of stuff to cover the hardwood floors but it cellulose based.  Probably about 2mm thick, but wouldnít last long in a bee hive!

Thereís something I like and something I worry about with your bottom entrance/vent box design.  I like the potential for a deep valley for the dying bees to fall into over winter.  That might prevent them from clogging up the entrance.  However at the same time, if they do clog up the entrance it looks to me like it would be difficult to unclog it without taking the hive apart in the winter. 

I mention this because I have found my smaller bottom entrances often get clogged shut with bees.  I can simply poke a stick strait in to clear the bees away.  It doesnít look like that would be possible with your entrance.

How about paint?  Are you going to paint this design or leave the metallic like finish?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 11:07:33 AM »

Since this thread is about super insulated hives, I wonder how advocates of insulated hives today (that includes me) would explain Brother Adamís failures with insulated hives?  He and another bee keeper in the UK ran an experiment on a total of 168 hives around the 1920s that were well insulated.  They were double walled hives with 6 to 8Ē of insulation between the walls (15cm to 20cm).

Hereís what Brother Adam wrote about the results of this experiment:  ďIn short this form of wintering (insulation) did not only prove a complete failure, but in actual fact had a detrimental effect on the well-being of the colonies.Ē  Page 57 of Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey

Why didnít insulation work for Brother Adam?
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derekm
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 07:13:09 AM »

...
Why didnít insulation work for Brother Adam?


Questions for Brother Adam :
When did  you put the insulation on? 
its been documented by other researchers (Everret 1915) that adding insulation on late in the season causes problems.  Just like a tree my insulation is permanent.
Insulation effectiveness is all about detail.
How air tight was the insulation?
insulation with poor air seals isnt very good insulation

How good was the insulation? did you measure the conductance?
how tall was the unbroken  cavity distance?
where in the  cavity were the bees confined.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
derekm
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 07:22:11 AM »

...I mention this because I have found my smaller bottom entrances often get clogged shut with bees.  I can simply poke a stick strait in to clear the bees away.  It doesnít look like that would be possible with your entrance.

How about paint?  Are you going to paint this design or leave the metallic like finish?

the PIR base board its on isnt part of the hive ... I now have a sloping piece of plastic mesh under the hive.. the dead bees can roll off.
the hives are left metallic to reduce radiative losses. Remember the effective temp of a clear  cold winter sky is about -60C (for radiative loss calcs)
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
little john
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2012, 08:17:15 AM »

Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php

What I like about this particular site is that the guy doesn't just theorise - but he goes to the trouble of running trials, and then publishing the data.

He's also had the outrageous idea of using a drinks packet as a foundation starter strip:
http://www.beebehavior.com/foundationless_frames.php
Crazy - but the evidence is there that it works ...

LJ
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Finski
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2012, 10:38:26 AM »

Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php


LJ



That guy know nothing about insulation. He thinks that insulation's duty is to catch water. What happens then? - The house or hive will be conqured by mold.

Good heavens that common sense ............

And you know what happens to wool or clothes when they are wet one week...

.

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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2012, 10:46:22 AM »

.

What is the layers of insulated human house wall:

- surface
- inner backround board
- /vapour batrrier
- insulation material
- wind barrier
- wind barrier
- air/ventilation gap
- outer cover against rain


One solution
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derekm
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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2012, 11:40:18 AM »

Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php

What I like about this particular site is that the guy doesn't just theorise - but he goes to the trouble of running trials, and then publishing the data.

...

His work while good intentioned has a number of flaws as it seems to assume this

"And one of beekeeping axiom states:"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."

This is a common misconception that leads to allsort of false conclusions.  What can kill bees (or humans for that matter) :
Excessive heat loss (hypothermia)
starvation
dehydration.
That false maxim :"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."
can lead one to kill bees  by either hypothermia and/or dehydration.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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