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Author Topic: scientific evidence for top entrance/vent  (Read 3259 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 03:33:20 PM »

Its that language barrier thing  laugh
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Finski
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 03:43:00 PM »

But a hole is a hole is a hole - whether made by a tool, or created by a matchstick. In one thread you appear to ridicule the idea of top ventilation, yet in another you support the idea.

LJ (confused)



heh he. Take it as you will.

It is vain to discuss with English beekeeper about winter food saving and insulation.
You even not have winter. Just very long autumn.

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gjd
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2012, 07:52:25 AM »

So no one has a set of results comparing top entrance/vent with bottom only. Thats disappointment   My own quantitive experiments have led me to seal the outside box and  roof  joints  of our hives  with cling film/saran wrap. I would like to see some other research on this, for or against.
If I was an enterprising applied entomologist, I'd get a grant to find a closed restaurant (lots around!), rent their walk-in freezer, buy a bunch of beehives, instrument them, and place a cluster simulation (heat and moisture source) in them.   By varying the cooler settings I could simulate different regions, and experiment with various insulation strategies, producing a zone map for beehive ventilation/insulation like is done for plants.  One interesting problem is that I have no idea what a *natural* beehive prefers (temps and humidity), so maybe I'd get another grant and a graduate student to find some bee trees, drill holes in the side, and insert probes that record temp/humidity over a year or two.  That all doesn't even address the specific- and different- question of how to optimize honey production.

I'm not that enterprising, so last winter I went down to my basement, got a retired beer brewing bucket (hole on bottom and lid), stuck a 25W light bulb in a can with a tray of water on top, and put a temp/humidity sensor inside.  I haven't looked at the results lately, but I dimly recall  that even a small (1/4") hole in the lid greatly reduces humidity and condensation without affecting the temperature much.   But if you really want to stop condensation on the underside of the cover, insulate the heck out of it.  Which, in the end, is just common sense. 

I tried something similar in a new empty beehive outside, but my methods were fairly haphazard and the variation in New England weather (zone 5, USA) made the results obscure.   I started all this, by the way, as preliminary data before studying Warre quilts to see if I could rescue my sodden TBH, but never got that far.  After looking at homasote behavior (little moisture removal from system compared to venting), I concluded the quilt was probably more an insulator than a moisture remover.  If someone wants to give me that grant, I'll be glad to prove it.

Greg
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T Beek
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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2012, 08:02:06 AM »

 goodpost
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little john
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 08:30:39 AM »

I dimly recall  that even a small (1/4") hole in the lid greatly reduces humidity and condensation without affecting the temperature much.
Interesting.   A 1/4" dia hole is something like 32 mm^2, whereas the infamous matchstick (estd. at 2.3 mm) produces a 'hole' of very nearly 2000 mm^2 (if used on a National hive)

LJ

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derekm
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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2012, 10:08:50 AM »

So no one has a set of results comparing top entrance/vent with bottom only. Thats disappointment   My own quantitive experiments have led me to seal the outside box and  roof  joints  of our hives  with cling film/saran wrap. I would like to see some other research on this, for or against.
... a bunch of beehives, instrument them, and place a cluster simulation (heat and moisture source) in them.  ...maybe I'd get another grant and a graduate student to find some bee trees, drill holes in the side, and insert probes that record temp/humidity over a year or two.  That all doesn't even address the specific- and different- question of how to optimize honey production.
...

this is what i'm in the middle of but I need the "research literure review" bit as well to write the paper...
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
derekm
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2012, 10:12:52 AM »

So no one has a set of results comparing top entrance/vent with bottom only. Thats disappointment   My own quantitive experiments have led me to seal the outside box and  roof  joints  of our hives  with cling film/saran wrap. I would like to see some other research on this, for or against.
... a bunch of beehives, instrument them, and place a cluster simulation (heat and moisture source) in them.  ...maybe I'd get another grant and a graduate student to find some bee trees, drill holes in the side, and insert probes that record temp/humidity over a year or two.  That all doesn't even address the specific- and different- question of how to optimize honey production.
...

This is what i'm in the middle of but I need the "research literure review" bit as well to write the paper...

« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 10:46:16 AM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2012, 10:36:39 AM »

I remember reading a study from the 1950 or 60s where they instrumented hives for winter studies in Wisconsin I believe.  I think it was a university funded study, but I can't recall for sure.  The attention to detail seemed rather dubious to me at the time, making the study questionable IMO.  Unfortunately I can't remember now where I read the study or if they covered the venting in detail.  It would certainly be great to have a modern quantitative study using modern materials.
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Finski
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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2012, 04:39:18 PM »

.
During that time when you whip your mouth on forum, you could execute all scientific experiments what you want.  To measure the meaning of upper hole should be easy to measure.

You put a colony to closed system. You measure the energy consuption with catching carbondiokside and measure heat production in various controlled circumtancies. So it happens.
What you do with that knowledge, I have no idea.

.
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derekm
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2012, 06:02:52 PM »

.
...
What you do with that knowledge, I have no idea.

.

Finski .. you have proved the maxim
you can lead a man to knowledge but you cant make him think



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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2012, 06:21:57 PM »


Finski .. you have proved the maxim
you can lead a man to knowledge but you cant make him think


listen Derekm

i have got a biologican scientic reseach education in Helsinki University. I have nursed bees 50 years.
With all my knowledge I say that you are  quite a propel head


.

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little john
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« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2012, 07:32:41 PM »

I remember reading a study from the 1950 or 60s where they instrumented hives for winter studies in Wisconsin I believe.  I think it was a university funded study, but I can't recall for sure.  The attention to detail seemed rather dubious to me at the time, making the study questionable IMO.  Unfortunately I can't remember now where I read the study or if they covered the venting in detail.  It would certainly be great to have a modern quantitative study using modern materials.


Was it:
http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/electric-heating-of-honey-bee-hives/  ?

LJ
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BlueBee
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« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2012, 07:53:38 PM »

Ah ha!  Yes, that was the study I was thinking about.  Hmmm, I did forget that little detail that they were heating the hives in that experiment.  Oops.  Undecided

I experimented with electric heat 2 or 3 winters ago and I guess I probably remembered that article from my research into electric back then. 
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gjd
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« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2012, 07:17:35 AM »

This is what i'm in the middle of but I need the "research literure review" bit as well to write the paper...

Yeah, same problem.  I think I also posted some pleas for leads on various forums last year.   You'd think that with the internet this stuff would be accessible, but I guess someone's got to pay the bills of the organizations producing the journals.  I'm 30 miles outside Boston (MIT, Harvard, etc) and don't have a clue how to get access to any data or even how to do research nowadays.   I was at Cornell studying engineering the same time Thomas Seeley was there climbing bee trees and took neurobiology courses in the Dept. he later headed; maybe I shouldn't have thrown out all that alumni junk mail for 35 years.  

Mostly, I'm baffled that this kind of study hasn't been sponsored by the U.S Dept. of Agriculture and widely distributed decades ago, considering how big the pollination business is.  I keep thinking there's a reason for it, maybe I'm naive about the complexity, but really don't know.

(Edit 10 minutes after above post) I'll eat my words, at least partly-- I used to post at and read beesource often, not sure how I missed their USDA archives, because I'm pretty sure I never saw this:
http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/

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derekm
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« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2012, 09:18:13 AM »


I have this one already in its full form with graphs and diagrams. This paper has a few faults . The level of insulation is not quantified i.e. the overall conductance of the hive is ommitted. This is very important  as level of insulation used could be insignificant to the bees and ivalidate the results.. The results indicate an insignificant amount of insulation was used. "The mean temperature outside the cluster in packed colonies was 7º F. higher than in the check colonies." this is indicating somewhere between 1w/K  and 5w/K.  This study investigates bee behaviour only in high heat loss regimes. It tells us that when the box is providing little effect in terms of preventing heat loss, the location of the entrance is of little relavence.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2012, 10:26:03 AM »

Iy, yi, yi  Smiley  All I know is that after trying bottom entrances only, and top entrances only, I've come to believe (so far) that for winter my bees do very well by leaving a 2 bee space entrance open on both top and bottom. 

As I am still conducting 'my' own experiments I still have 2 (not including Long Hives) colonies w/ just top entrances.  At least in my part of the world Top entrances seem to work better than just bottoms.  All Beekeeping is Local  cool
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derekm
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« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2012, 10:37:39 AM »

Iy, yi, yi  Smiley  All I know is that after trying bottom entrances only, and top entrances only, I've come to believe (so far) that for winter my bees do very well by leaving a 2 bee space entrance open on both top and bottom. 

As I am still conducting 'my' own experiments I still have 2 (not including Long Hives) colonies w/ just top entrances.  At least in my part of the world Top entrances seem to work better than just bottoms.  All Beekeeping is Local  cool

how much insulation during
winter
summer
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2012, 10:46:43 AM »

I keep 2" rigid insulation above all year around (protects from heat and cold).  This year will be my first using rigid foam shells.  In the past all I did was wrap in Tar Paper with give and take success/failure until discovering top entances, which changed 'everything' for me and my bees.

Admittedly, I was becoming a better beek during this period as well, but top entrances effectively ended the condensation issues I had dealth with for several seasons prior.
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