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Author Topic: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation  (Read 4045 times)

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« on: November 19, 2012, 02:33:32 PM »
Interesting read :

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924003100306

Cheers,
Drew

Offline little john

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 04:04:23 PM »
Hi Drew

as you probably know, if you go to the main page, a PDF or DJVU (my favourite format) copy can be downloaded, using the right-hand menu:
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL24169061M/Constructive_beekeeping

A couple more gems I found there recently are:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL20516489M/The_Bee-keeper's_Manual
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7179038M/Beekeeping

The old-timers certainly knew a thing or two about bees ....

'best
LJ

Offline Finski

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 04:33:00 PM »
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100 years old text. Interestting but not worth of reading.
I red long parts but I did not understand how I can use that thinking.

Actually I believe that guys did not knew much about condensation even if they thinked over.

It was first energy crisis when in Finland we started to insulate better the houses to save energy.

Construction materials were many and builders did not knew how the construction acts between warm interior and cold outdoors.  it was condensation and dewpoint which started to rotten buildings and made them to mold nest.

When I have read in US and UK about insulation, very few understand what is the meaning of insulation. Condensation is easy to understand when you see moisture. But how to get rid of condensation or moistture, then it revieles understanding.

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Offline little john

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 06:01:14 AM »
Well - I appreciate that this thread is primarily about condensation - but such early books are a mine of useful observations, many of which have been selectively ignored over the years.

For example, if you pick up a contemporary book on beekeeping, the author will no doubt tell you that Queen bees mate in Drone Congregation Areas - with no mention of mating anywhere else. But I read recently (in a 100 year-old book) that Queens have sometimes been observed mating as soon as they left the hive - within just a few yards of the box. It's observations such as this which I think are valuable.

In some areas (admittedly, insulation isn't one of them) not a great deal has changed in a hundred years.

LJ

Offline derekm

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 06:29:29 AM »
...In some areas (admittedly, insulation isn't one of them) not a great deal has changed in a hundred years.

LJ


The actual science involved in insulation and heat flow hasnt changed in a hundred years ... the difference is only in the materials available.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 05:28:53 PM »
...In some areas (admittedly, insulation isn't one of them) not a great deal has changed in a hundred years.

LJ


The actual science involved in insulation and heat flow hasnt changed in a hundred years ... the difference is only in the materials available.

hey guys.

If we look for example the insulation solutions in UK and in Finland, the diffence is great.

Everything shanges in 100 years.

And that text has not been smart even 100 y ago.

And the author writes much about summer condensation during nectar handling process.

I have not met such.

"water condensates on inner wall and bees get drinking water from the wall"  you really think so...

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Offline derekm

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 12:06:35 PM »
...
And the author writes much about summer condensation during nectar handling process.

I have not met such.

"water condensates on inner wall and bees get drinking water from the wall"  you really think so...

I've seen  both and I've only been beekeeping 1.75 years.  Maybe Your hives are robbing the bees of their water and the associated heat  so you dont give them a chance to do this.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Robo

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 12:17:12 PM »
Yes, this is indeed an interesting read.  I have referenced it quite a few times here on the forum, but most beekeepers are set in their ways and believe the more the better when it comes to ventilation.   I find it very interested that Clark tries to demonstrate that bees can not rely on evaporation alone to remove all the moisture from the nectar.  Granted I haven't tried validating his math, but that, with the fact that most feral colonies I find have very little ventilation leads me to believe he may be onto something.  I have been wintering my bees with only a 3" x 3/8" bottom entrance for a few years now and I am pleased with the results.   The more heat they can keep, the better they will build up.   I have done some experiments with 7watt light bulbs and have seen many times, the queen move to lay in the bottom of the frames right over the light bulb,  instead of up top where she would normally lay.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline Finski

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 12:49:48 PM »

I've seen  both and I've only been beekeeping 1.75 years.  Maybe Your hives are robbing the bees of their water and the associated heat  so you dont give them a chance to do this.

2 years as a beekeeper. OK.

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Offline Finski

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 01:12:04 PM »
[
I've seen  both and I've only been beekeeping 1.75 years.  Maybe Your hives are robbing the bees of their water and the associated heat  so you dont give them a chance to do this.

i do not know what you have seen, but I know that when bees feed larvae, they must bring water from groud. They do not use condensation water from inner wall. I just know that.

When flow is heavy, it is sure that moisture does not condensate onto inner walls. The hive is totally so hot that dew point is outside the hive.
At least in my hives I have not condenstion during good nectar flow. On floor I can see moisture after night.

Bees robbing water from hives.....get a life.

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Offline derekm

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 04:07:34 PM »
[
I've seen  both and I've only been beekeeping 1.75 years.  Maybe Your hives are robbing the bees of their water and the associated heat  so you dont give them a chance to do this.

i do not know what you have seen, but I know that when bees feed larvae, they must bring water from groud. They do not use condensation water from inner wall. I just know that.

When flow is heavy, it is sure that moisture does not condensate onto inner walls. The hive is totally so hot that dew point is outside the hive.
At least in my hives I have not condenstion during good nectar flow. On floor I can see moisture after night.
Bees robbing water from hives.....get a life.

its finski robbing water from bees with the boxes he uses.
Your boxes have the dew point outside the box in a good nectar flow... its not a property of the bees but of your boxes.  Bees didnt evolve in boxes made by finski. 
I have a life, I think therefore I am
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 04:11:19 PM »



i do not know what you have seen, but I know that when bees feed larvae, they must bring water from groud. They do not use condensation water from inner wall. I just know that.

When flow is heavy, it is sure that moisture does not condensate onto inner walls. The hive is totally so hot that dew point is outside the hive.
At least in my hives I have not condenstion during good nectar flow. On floor I can see moisture after night.
Bees robbing water from hives.....get a life.

its finski robbing water from bees with the boxes he uses.
Your boxes have the dew point outside the box in a good nectar flow... its not a property of the bees but of your boxes.  Bees didnt evolve in boxes made by finski.  You seem to limit the bees possibilities to what boxes you have supplied in the past and are content to limit your knowledge to that.

I have a life, I think therefore I am
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2012, 05:20:55 PM »

its finski robbing water from bees with the boxes he uses.
Your boxes have the dew point outside the box in a good nectar flow... its not a property of the bees but of your boxes.  Bees didnt evolve in boxes made by finski.  You seem to limit the bees possibilities to what boxes you have supplied in the past and are content to limit your knowledge to that.

I have a life, I think therefore I am

Dear Sir, it you get  200 kg honey from your best hives, I am interested to hear more your theories and how it happens.

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Offline derekm

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2012, 05:47:36 PM »

its finski robbing water from bees with the boxes he uses.
Your boxes have the dew point outside the box in a good nectar flow... its not a property of the bees but of your boxes.  Bees didnt evolve in boxes made by finski.  You seem to limit the bees possibilities to what boxes you have supplied in the past and are content to limit your knowledge to that.

I have a life, I think therefore I am

Dear Sir, it you get  200 kg honey from your best hives, I am interested to hear more your theories and how it happens.



Again ... you need new thoughts Finski . You should issue your challenge in yeild per hectare or yield per beek hour not per hive ... more inside the the box thinking from Finland.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline edward

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2012, 06:52:49 PM »
Hmmm if the bees drink water from inside the hive? Why do the still fly and collect water to feed the larvae when its raining out ?
Maybee they prefer a better water source

mvh edward  :-P

Offline Finski

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2012, 11:02:04 PM »
Again ... you need new thoughts Finski . You should issue your challenge in yeild per hectare or yield per beek hour not per hive ... more inside the the box thinking from Finland.

sure, of course.  one challenge more: yield per car tyres.

That is not even knowledge like "yield per hectare" or "yield per beek hour" .

Real knowledge is to know, what kind of pastures give yield in all circumtancies.
This is very difficult.

But Derekm, would you tell how much you get honey from hives. So I know with whom I am talking?


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« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 11:20:50 PM by Finski »
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Offline Finski

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2012, 11:14:37 PM »
Hmmm if the bees drink water from inside the hive? Why do the still fly and collect water to feed the larvae when its raining out ?
Maybee they prefer a better water source

mvh edward  :-P

a real beekeeper, like edward, see at once what is happening.

I have sawn in my hives when I feed pollen patty.

20 years ago  I started pollen+honey  patty feeding. At first the hives became sick, because snow covered ground and bees did not get drinking water.

One year it became it came one week frost and snow cover. Every hive lost their larvae.

this year I saw that bees do not eate soya-yeast-pollen patty in the morning. When they got drinking watter in the middle of day, then they may start patty eating . That repeated every day.

I had drinking places where bees can get water near freezing point. But they pick water only when sun shined.

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Offline derekm

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2012, 10:37:10 AM »
Again ... you need new thoughts Finski . You should issue your challenge in yeild per hectare or yield per beek hour not per hive ... more inside the the box thinking from Finland.

sure, of course.  one challenge more: yield per car tyres.

That is not even knowledge like "yield per hectare" or "yield per beek hour" .

Real knowledge is to know, what kind of pastures give yield in all circumtancies.
This is very difficult.

But Derekm, would you tell how much you get honey from hives. So I know with whom I am talking?


.

Honey yield as phallic symbol ...
Try using your intellectual capacity rather than willy waving.

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2012, 10:40:41 AM »
Again ... you need new thoughts Finski . You should issue your challenge in yeild per hectare or yield per beek hour not per hive ... more inside the the box thinking from Finland.

sure, of course.  one challenge more: yield per car tyres.

That is not even knowledge like "yield per hectare" or "yield per beek hour" .

Real knowledge is to know, what kind of pastures give yield in all circumtancies.
This is very difficult.

But Derekm, would you tell how much you get honey from hives. So I know with whom I am talking?


.

Honey yield as phallic symbol ...
Try using your intellectual capacity rather than willy waving.

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 11:03:21 AM »
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Ok.you have not get a single kilo honey from your hive.


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