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Author Topic: Constructive Beekeeping - The importance of condensation  (Read 3212 times)
Maryland Beekeeper
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« on: November 19, 2012, 01:33:32 PM »

Interesting read :

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924003100306

Cheers,
Drew
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little john
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 03:04:23 PM »

Hi Drew

as you probably know, if you go to the main page, a PDF or DJVU (my favourite format) copy can be downloaded, using the right-hand menu:
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL24169061M/Constructive_beekeeping

A couple more gems I found there recently are:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL20516489M/The_Bee-keeper's_Manual
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7179038M/Beekeeping

The old-timers certainly knew a thing or two about bees ....

'best
LJ
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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 03:33:00 PM »

.
100 years old text. Interestting but not worth of reading.
I red long parts but I did not understand how I can use that thinking.

Actually I believe that guys did not knew much about condensation even if they thinked over.

It was first energy crisis when in Finland we started to insulate better the houses to save energy.

Construction materials were many and builders did not knew how the construction acts between warm interior and cold outdoors.  it was condensation and dewpoint which started to rotten buildings and made them to mold nest.

When I have read in US and UK about insulation, very few understand what is the meaning of insulation. Condensation is easy to understand when you see moisture. But how to get rid of condensation or moistture, then it revieles understanding.

.

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little john
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 05:01:14 AM »

Well - I appreciate that this thread is primarily about condensation - but such early books are a mine of useful observations, many of which have been selectively ignored over the years.

For example, if you pick up a contemporary book on beekeeping, the author will no doubt tell you that Queen bees mate in Drone Congregation Areas - with no mention of mating anywhere else. But I read recently (in a 100 year-old book) that Queens have sometimes been observed mating as soon as they left the hive - within just a few yards of the box. It's observations such as this which I think are valuable.

In some areas (admittedly, insulation isn't one of them) not a great deal has changed in a hundred years.

LJ
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derekm
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 05:29:29 AM »

...In some areas (admittedly, insulation isn't one of them) not a great deal has changed in a hundred years.

LJ


The actual science involved in insulation and heat flow hasnt changed in a hundred years ... the difference is only in the materials available.
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 04:28:53 PM »

...In some areas (admittedly, insulation isn't one of them) not a great deal has changed in a hundred years.

LJ


The actual science involved in insulation and heat flow hasnt changed in a hundred years ... the difference is only in the materials available.

hey guys.

If we look for example the insulation solutions in UK and in Finland, the diffence is great.

Everything shanges in 100 years.

And that text has not been smart even 100 y ago.

And the author writes much about summer condensation during nectar handling process.

I have not met such.

"water condensates on inner wall and bees get drinking water from the wall"  you really think so...

.





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derekm
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 11:06:35 AM »

...
And the author writes much about summer condensation during nectar handling process.

I have not met such.

"water condensates on inner wall and bees get drinking water from the wall"  you really think so...

I've seen  both and I've only been beekeeping 1.75 years.  Maybe Your hives are robbing the bees of their water and the associated heat  so you dont give them a chance to do this.
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 11:17:12 AM »

Yes, this is indeed an interesting read.  I have referenced it quite a few times here on the forum, but most beekeepers are set in their ways and believe the more the better when it comes to ventilation.   I find it very interested that Clark tries to demonstrate that bees can not rely on evaporation alone to remove all the moisture from the nectar.  Granted I haven't tried validating his math, but that, with the fact that most feral colonies I find have very little ventilation leads me to believe he may be onto something.  I have been wintering my bees with only a 3" x 3/8" bottom entrance for a few years now and I am pleased with the results.   The more heat they can keep, the better they will build up.   I have done some experiments with 7watt light bulbs and have seen many times, the queen move to lay in the bottom of the frames right over the light bulb,  instead of up top where she would normally lay.
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 11:49:48 AM »


I've seen  both and I've only been beekeeping 1.75 years.  Maybe Your hives are robbing the bees of their water and the associated heat  so you dont give them a chance to do this.

2 years as a beekeeper. OK.

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Finski
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 12:12:04 PM »

[
I've seen  both and I've only been beekeeping 1.75 years.  Maybe Your hives are robbing the bees of their water and the associated heat  so you dont give them a chance to do this.

i do not know what you have seen, but I know that when bees feed larvae, they must bring water from groud. They do not use condensation water from inner wall. I just know that.

When flow is heavy, it is sure that moisture does not condensate onto inner walls. The hive is totally so hot that dew point is outside the hive.
At least in my hives I have not condenstion during good nectar flow. On floor I can see moisture after night.

Bees robbing water from hives.....get a life.

.

.

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derekm
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 03:07:34 PM »

[
I've seen  both and I've only been beekeeping 1.75 years.  Maybe Your hives are robbing the bees of their water and the associated heat  so you dont give them a chance to do this.

i do not know what you have seen, but I know that when bees feed larvae, they must bring water from groud. They do not use condensation water from inner wall. I just know that.

When flow is heavy, it is sure that moisture does not condensate onto inner walls. The hive is totally so hot that dew point is outside the hive.
At least in my hives I have not condenstion during good nectar flow. On floor I can see moisture after night.
Bees robbing water from hives.....get a life.

its finski robbing water from bees with the boxes he uses.
Your boxes have the dew point outside the box in a good nectar flow... its not a property of the bees but of your boxes.  Bees didnt evolve in boxes made by finski. 
I have a life, I think therefore I am
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 03:11:19 PM »




i do not know what you have seen, but I know that when bees feed larvae, they must bring water from groud. They do not use condensation water from inner wall. I just know that.

When flow is heavy, it is sure that moisture does not condensate onto inner walls. The hive is totally so hot that dew point is outside the hive.
At least in my hives I have not condenstion during good nectar flow. On floor I can see moisture after night.
Bees robbing water from hives.....get a life.

its finski robbing water from bees with the boxes he uses.
Your boxes have the dew point outside the box in a good nectar flow... its not a property of the bees but of your boxes.  Bees didnt evolve in boxes made by finski.  You seem to limit the bees possibilities to what boxes you have supplied in the past and are content to limit your knowledge to that.

I have a life, I think therefore I am
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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2012, 04:20:55 PM »


its finski robbing water from bees with the boxes he uses.
Your boxes have the dew point outside the box in a good nectar flow... its not a property of the bees but of your boxes.  Bees didnt evolve in boxes made by finski.  You seem to limit the bees possibilities to what boxes you have supplied in the past and are content to limit your knowledge to that.

I have a life, I think therefore I am

Dear Sir, it you get  200 kg honey from your best hives, I am interested to hear more your theories and how it happens.

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derekm
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2012, 04:47:36 PM »


its finski robbing water from bees with the boxes he uses.
Your boxes have the dew point outside the box in a good nectar flow... its not a property of the bees but of your boxes.  Bees didnt evolve in boxes made by finski.  You seem to limit the bees possibilities to what boxes you have supplied in the past and are content to limit your knowledge to that.

I have a life, I think therefore I am

Dear Sir, it you get  200 kg honey from your best hives, I am interested to hear more your theories and how it happens.



Again ... you need new thoughts Finski . You should issue your challenge in yeild per hectare or yield per beek hour not per hive ... more inside the the box thinking from Finland.
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2012, 05:52:49 PM »

Hmmm if the bees drink water from inside the hive? Why do the still fly and collect water to feed the larvae when its raining out ?
Maybee they prefer a better water source

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2012, 10:02:04 PM »

Again ... you need new thoughts Finski . You should issue your challenge in yeild per hectare or yield per beek hour not per hive ... more inside the the box thinking from Finland.

sure, of course.  one challenge more: yield per car tyres.

That is not even knowledge like "yield per hectare" or "yield per beek hour" .

Real knowledge is to know, what kind of pastures give yield in all circumtancies.
This is very difficult.

But Derekm, would you tell how much you get honey from hives. So I know with whom I am talking?


.
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2012, 10:14:37 PM »

Hmmm if the bees drink water from inside the hive? Why do the still fly and collect water to feed the larvae when its raining out ?
Maybee they prefer a better water source

mvh edward  tongue

a real beekeeper, like edward, see at once what is happening.

I have sawn in my hives when I feed pollen patty.

20 years ago  I started pollen+honey  patty feeding. At first the hives became sick, because snow covered ground and bees did not get drinking water.

One year it became it came one week frost and snow cover. Every hive lost their larvae.

this year I saw that bees do not eate soya-yeast-pollen patty in the morning. When they got drinking watter in the middle of day, then they may start patty eating . That repeated every day.

I had drinking places where bees can get water near freezing point. But they pick water only when sun shined.

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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2012, 09:37:10 AM »

Again ... you need new thoughts Finski . You should issue your challenge in yeild per hectare or yield per beek hour not per hive ... more inside the the box thinking from Finland.

sure, of course.  one challenge more: yield per car tyres.

That is not even knowledge like "yield per hectare" or "yield per beek hour" .

Real knowledge is to know, what kind of pastures give yield in all circumtancies.
This is very difficult.

But Derekm, would you tell how much you get honey from hives. So I know with whom I am talking?


.

Honey yield as phallic symbol ...
Try using your intellectual capacity rather than willy waving.

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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2012, 09:40:41 AM »

Again ... you need new thoughts Finski . You should issue your challenge in yeild per hectare or yield per beek hour not per hive ... more inside the the box thinking from Finland.

sure, of course.  one challenge more: yield per car tyres.

That is not even knowledge like "yield per hectare" or "yield per beek hour" .

Real knowledge is to know, what kind of pastures give yield in all circumtancies.
This is very difficult.

But Derekm, would you tell how much you get honey from hives. So I know with whom I am talking?


.

Honey yield as phallic symbol ...
Try using your intellectual capacity rather than willy waving.

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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 10:03:21 AM »

.
Ok.you have not get a single kilo honey from your hive.


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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2012, 11:36:23 AM »

.
Ok.you have not get a single kilo honey from your hive.



Quod Erat Demonstrandum
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2012, 01:52:09 PM »

Please put things back in your pants  Lips Sealed

Honey yields depend on the environment and vegetation , some people advertise bees that collect 120kg+ every year  Undecided

Another factor is the BEEKEEPER not a bee owner doing things right and at the right time.

My mentor helped his nephew with 3 hives, he had them in the same area that an old experienced bee owner had 6 hives that gave him ca 12kg/year/hive = ca 72 kg 

The nephew averaged 60kg per hive = 180 kg  grin How did this happen?  shocked

He got help and the right information over the phone how to optimize his hives.

Early in the year the old bee owner told him what he thought he should do and interrogated him on his hives condition. As the season progressed and the nephews hives grew into skyscrapers the older bee owner beecame scarce and didn't even look at him.
One can only hope that he takes stock over his beekeeping and maybee changes his way/methods to keep bees, or not, he might bee content with his substandard methods,  I dunno fine.

Same area, same bee race, different beekeepers  bee

Or can it depend on my mentor is from finish decedent ( not finski )

Find a competent beekeeper , offer free help , ride there coat tails , and learn how to bee a successful beekeeper if that is your goal.  bee

mvh edward  tongue

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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2012, 02:00:46 PM »

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Quoting Latin may have helped the clergy to subjugate the masses in the middle ages but in enlightened world today it is one of the last refuges of an Internet troll  jail

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2012, 02:29:45 PM »

Please put things back in your pants  Lips Sealed


tack ska du har

but bönorna do not stay in pants. You know it, bönaboare.

You know nothing about yields. This year average yield of UK was 4 kg per hive.

I tried to make a bit fool with Mr Insulator.

I have heard the the worst insult i Sverige är fakki-idiot.



.
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« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2012, 03:11:03 PM »

bönorna do not stay in pants
This year average yield of UK was 4 kg per hive
I have heard the the worst insult i Sverige är fakki-idiot

Bönorna = old slang "chicks/hot women" plural , not dead yet so still trying  grin

If it was a poor harvest year in the UK they should capitalize on it and raise local honey prises to an appropriate level.

Not really  rolleyes

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2012, 06:57:55 PM »

Surely they got more than 4kg per hive in the UK?  Brother Adam was getting much more than that from his hives.  Nearly 100kg at one point.  Oddly enough, Brother Adam didn’t believe in insulation at all.  Go figure huh 

Surely we don't want to criticize somebody in the UK, or elsewhere, for wanting to insulate their bees and making their living conditions more similar to the bees "natural" living conditions?

I have seen the condensation question come up before and I have seen people claiming that the bees drink the condensation from within the hives.  I have no idea rather that is true or not, but this winter nearly all my hives and nucs have clear plastic inner covers so maybe I'll observe something worth reporting.

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little john
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« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2012, 08:06:08 PM »

Surely they got more than 4kg per hive in the UK?  Brother Adam was getting much more than that from his hives.  Nearly 100kg at one point.  Oddly enough, Brother Adam didn’t believe in insulation at all.

For many UK beeks this has been the worse year EVER. I've heard stories of some people feeding their hives right throughout the year, just to keep their colonies alive - so for many it's been a negative harvest. Rain, rain, rain - we went straight from a drought (with a hosepipe ban) to the wettest spring & summer since records began.

Oh - and as I type this, it's STILL raining - and with the ground already water-logged, there are hundreds of flood warnings in force, rivers bursting their banks, bridges washed away - that sort of thing.

Crazy weather - my girls were out flying today - 23rd November (!), and bringing back pollen.   In my yard there are dandelions, daisies, cow parsley - all have come into bloom for a second time this year. 2012 has been very weird indeed.

LJ

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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2012, 01:17:02 AM »

.
I followed UK weather the whole year. It was terrible. 15C was "normal" along summer.

Reason was high pressure and hot weathrs in eastern Europe and in Siberia. The edge areas rained cats and dogs.

I have some zero hives too. before that I have not such hives. Basic temp was low. We hardly got  over 20C days.

What I learned from  this summer weathers was that wind  makes bees' foraging difficult under 18C weather. That is same what Australians have noticed.

Wide fields, where is no winter shelter, they are bad to bees in critical temperatures.
Hives in windy places consume honey lots when they keep  warm their hives.
.
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2012, 02:50:37 PM »

Quod Erat Demonstrandum


Quoting Latin may have helped the clergy to subjugate the masses in the middle ages but in enlightened world today it is one of the last refuges of an Internet troll  jail

mvh edward  tongue

 The English language over here has lots of foreign phrases. We even had a long running TV documentary program called QED (i'll let you guess what that stands for)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.
deja Vu
Sine Qua non
ce la vie
Bon homie
et cetera

and even foreign place names
Doo lally

cant think of any modern Swedish phrases or words though.

Pardon me for oppressing you  with my education in my own language
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 03:21:49 PM by derekm » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2012, 02:56:20 PM »

Quantum Electro Dynamics?
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edward
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« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2012, 04:05:49 PM »

I am sorry  rolleyes I thought this was a forum for beekeeping  bee

Not a playground for an Internet troll pretending to give English lessons  rolleyes

back to discussing bees please  bee

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2012, 04:12:39 PM »



I know latin too

lillin lillin lieru, dekemiltä pääsi pieru
keskellä kirkon mäkkee
siitä tulöi suuri häppee

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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2012, 04:13:17 PM »

Trolls come from Scandinavia...

Edward, I refute your slanderous insults that impune one for using phrases outside your limited knowledge of English.
surely using a well known phrase as "Quod erat demonstrandum" as a basis to accuse some one af being and internet troll (" inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, ")
is in fact the work of an internet troll. I suggest you purchase a mirror when going Troll hunting.
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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2012, 04:32:31 PM »

For many UK beeks this has been the worse year EVER. I've heard stories of some people feeding their hives right throughout the year, just to keep their colonies alive - so for many it's been a negative harvest. Rain, rain, rain - we went straight from a drought (with a hosepipe ban) to the wettest spring & summer since records began.

To make the most of a bad situation I hope you can raise your prices.

Colleagues in the north of Sweden had a terrible season 2-3 years ago and it was impossible to buy local honey, many grocery stores put signs in the shelves telling the customers why  Sad
The year after when the harvest was normal the honey price increased with 50%  grin and is still at that price  to day.
Every cloud has a silver lining

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2012, 04:36:58 PM »


Trolls come from Scandinavia...



Ex nihilo nihil fit
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« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2012, 01:37:16 AM »

I'm learning a lot of Latin here  Wink

Do we need to broker a new peace treaty between our friends in Finland, Sweden, and the UK?
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« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2012, 02:35:50 AM »

Trolls come from Scandinavia

This might bee the case, and if so one might expect that we have a little more experience spotting them  grin

outside your limited knowledge of English

I didn't know that my limited knowledge of Latin meant that I don't understand my native tongue  rolleyes

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2012, 02:44:52 AM »

I'm learning a lot of Latin here  Wink



60% of English language is Latin
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« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2012, 07:24:45 AM »

cant think of any modern Swedish phrases or words though.


Strewth - I can ...

"Would you like to share my sauna ?"



LJ
[trying to lighten the mood]
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« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2012, 08:01:18 AM »

"Would you like to share my sauna ?"[trying to lighten the mood]

You forgot a few things,  grin we don't wear bathing suits in the sauna  grin

 yippie chick In Scandinavia even the ugly girls look good  yippie chick

Maybee that's why trolls live out of sight under bridges  lau

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2012, 08:09:36 AM »

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Sauna is derived from Russian word sauna, which means sauna.

Here is a modern "Russian sauna line "

http://saunaline.ru/showsauna/10.htm
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