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Author Topic: this sums it up  (Read 6615 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #80 on: November 26, 2012, 12:56:46 PM »

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I don't see it as a conspiracy. It's very simple. People who smoke and/or are obese cost the health insurance companies more money. I don't smoke, drink, am not obese, exercise a lot and eat great food. I do NOT want to have exorbitant health insurance costs because many others choose a riskier lifestyle.

sure, but the fact that we all rely on insurance in the first place is one of the major reasons for increased cost of health care.  i don't want to pay for your daughters snotty nose, your son's football injury, or the fact that your husband can't get it up without meds.  none of those things are issues in my life. 

Quote
I don't' drink, smoke, eat unhealthy, I'm not overweight, I walk and exercise regularly. And I still do not want to pay for your insurance or anyones insurance for that matter as Obamacare is going to require me to do, weather or not they smoke or they are fat and lazy.

and there are those like me, who come from a family of genetically healthy people.  even when we behave in ways that others see as unhealthy, we don't suffer for it as others might.  there are people who do everything right, and are unhealthy. 

so here we have two good liberals who think that it's ok to judge the lifestyle of others because they are paying for the consequences of those lifestyles.  it does not occur to them to question the fact that they are paying for what others do.  the next step, and this is not theory, it's already happened, is that care/cost will be determined by lifestyle.  at first it will be cost, but as we go to single payer, it will be care.  rationing based on statistics. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #81 on: November 26, 2012, 01:03:36 PM »

I'm confused. How are any of you paying for my insurance? You're not. I am. This is completely unrelated to politics or taxation. Insurance is something we can go without if we choose. If we want it, then we're part of a large pool of people. Unfortunately for those of us living as healthy as we can, our rates are based on the entire pool and not just the healthy ones. So you might think you're paying for my kid's snotty nose (something I'd never take them to a doctor for), but in that scenario I'd be paying for your smoking cessation Rx.

For those who will be forced to buy insurance after the Act goes into effect, the penalty is either $95/year or 1% of their income, whichever is larger. I do not have a problem with that. I have to have uninsured motorist's coverage on my vehicle insurance since there's a recognition that another uninsured person's actions can cost my insurance company money. I think most people can afford $2/week.
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iddee
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« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2012, 02:41:37 PM »

Luvin honey, Bluebee, have you switched over to conservative? You sure sound like it. I thought you wanted all money thrown in one big basket and split evenly amongst all people, citizens or not.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2012, 02:59:06 PM »

iddee--I have always been a keen believer in personal responsibility! And I still want a safety net for those less/incompletely able to care for themselves (or able-bodied people's children).
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The pedigree of honey
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---Emily Dickinson
iddee
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« Reply #84 on: November 26, 2012, 03:00:50 PM »

So do I, but NOT managed by the idiots running it today.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2012, 04:42:51 PM »

Luvin Honey, only those not working will be at 2 dollars a week. There are only so many 1 percents they can take  until they have all the percents.
Fed taxes on wages are 15 to 25 percent depending on what you make. over 13 percent for SS. Fica is 1.45 but will be 2.35 percent if your a couple earning over 250,000 a year.State income tax rate is 3.07 percent. These are all taxes on the gross,,nowhere do they base the rate on whats left after the ones before put it to you. So you are actually getting your taxes taxed too.
I pay 18 1/2 cents federal tax and 38 cents state tax on gasoline.I pay taxes on every utility and my cell phone. I pay 6 percent of my non food bill in taxes. My property taxes are well over 2000 a year. Municipalities collect a franchise fee from cable and phone companies which is another nice name for a tax.  There has to be an end to the spending. Not a means to gather more money. As the government consumes more and more dollars,there will be less left for private investment . Every tax dollar raised is a freedom taken from somewhere.
Meaning they are taking away the peoples choice to decide how they spend what they earn.
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« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2012, 04:43:54 PM »

The safety net has become a permanent shelter  to too many. We all see abuse of the safety nets.
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T Beek
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« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2012, 06:01:52 PM »

You folks 'still' haven't checked out Henry George and the "Single Tax" have you?

"You can lead someone to knowledge but you can't make them think"  Sad
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sterling
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« Reply #88 on: November 26, 2012, 06:29:36 PM »

Luvin honey, Bluebee, have you switched over to conservative? You sure sound like it. I thought you wanted all money thrown in one big basket and split evenly amongst all people, citizens or not.

They probably will get alittle more conservative when their tax money starts going to that 45,000,000 who don't have insurance. I been told by those who have read the Obama bill that there are 18 new tax laws in it. And it amounts to alot more then $2 a week.
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sterling
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« Reply #89 on: November 26, 2012, 06:36:36 PM »

iddee--I have always been a keen believer in personal responsibility! And I still want a safety net for those less/incompletely able to care for themselves (or able-bodied people's children).

If you haven't figured it out yet let me clue you in. When people see they can get things free [free food, free phones, free housing, or free health care  they all of a sudden become unable to care for themselves. And all of a sudden think it's their right to get free stuff.
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kathyp
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« Reply #90 on: November 26, 2012, 06:49:48 PM »

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You folks 'still' haven't checked out Henry George and the "Single Tax" have you?

not interested in it anymore.  it's theory and when i asked you for practical application i got hot air about your valuable teaching time.  anyone can spit out theory.  some can even apply theory successfully in a small scale.  most can't translate theory into any kind of workable application...thus results like soviet Russia and communist china.........

so the short answer...NO.

luvin...your state may  make you buy certain auto insurance.  your state could even make you buy medical insurance.  states have the power to do these things and that's why i never was so wound up about romney care.

how do you justify allowing the federal govt to not only demand that you purchase a thing, but fine you if you don't.  not just any thing, but a thing that has their approved mandates and that they control?  does this not bother you at all?  that much power over such an important part of your life and now in the hands of the federal government?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2012, 08:29:10 AM »

And you certainly 'spit' with the best, don't you.  It doesn't always have to be a competition w/ you does it?

Your 'blinders' are as usual obvious kathyp.  I've presented you dozens of examples that remain ignored by you, many examples right in the U.S and if the blinders were off you'd know it. 

I'm not going to repeat them to you for you to ignore them again and then claim I offered none  rolleyes  I will waste my time w/ that argument no more.  I feel your assumptions about anything I or some others might suggest will generally get the same condescending comment or worse from you, so struggle w/ the point of it all. 

Sorry, don't mean to single you out, there are others on the FORUM w/ an obvious intolerance for the viewpoints of others, but right now you're the one who is telling fibs.

IT remains obvious you have no idea what the "Single Tax" would offer to the world (and already has) by your comments, making it extremely difficult to have this conversation. 

Have you gotten this far?  Hope so.

This is no surprise, its how some (on both the right and left) will 'always' react when confronted w/ any shift or opening of thought that challenges their steadfast beliefs or comfort zone.  Its that old "boogieman" fear thing again.  Change BAD, Same GOOD  grin  or visa verse.

It is human nature to resist challenges to ones 'perceived' world view.  No surprise there.  Unfortunately its what allows some of us  to 'assume' many things (mostly condemning) about those falsely perceived enemies (we love our enemies) who may 'see' things differently,  effectively ENDING any meaningful debate. 

Too bad and too common in these allegedly 'enlightened' days.

I've noticed that you Kathyp; love to 'assign' certain lessons to others, but seldom accept any from anyone else.  It suggests an all to common psychological profile that is difficult to overcome without regular practice in the art of acceptance and tolerance.  Will you accept that?  Hmmm.

Alas, so it goes on the Merry-Go-Round  Smiley  Let the ridicule begin  rolleyes  grin
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luvin honey
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« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2012, 11:56:39 AM »

Luvin honey, Bluebee, have you switched over to conservative? You sure sound like it. I thought you wanted all money thrown in one big basket and split evenly amongst all people, citizens or not.

They probably will get alittle more conservative when their tax money starts going to that 45,000,000 who don't have insurance. I been told by those who have read the Obama bill that there are 18 new tax laws in it. And it amounts to alot more then $2 a week.
For those with little or no income, we are all ALREADY paying into their healthcare through Medicaid or (in my state) Badgercare. The $2/week is the FINE for those choosing to go without insurance. If someone is impoverished, they already qualify for Medicaid. If they make a lousy income of $20,000/household, they would have a fine of $95/year (approx. $2/week). If someone is earning $50,000 or $100,000/year they can probably afford heatlh insurance. If they choose not to get it, their fine is $500 and $1000 respectively. They WILL get medical care if they need it (insurance or not), and that fine helps offset their costs at that time, although I have no idea where the fines will go in the govt.

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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
luvin honey
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« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2012, 12:01:38 PM »

iddee--I have always been a keen believer in personal responsibility! And I still want a safety net for those less/incompletely able to care for themselves (or able-bodied people's children).

If you haven't figured it out yet let me clue you in. When people see they can get things free [free food, free phones, free housing, or free health care  they all of a sudden become unable to care for themselves. And all of a sudden think it's their right to get free stuff.
And I continue to enjoy your insults of my intelligence. Tell me, how will Obamacare get people more free stuff? Please give me one example. The welfare folks you are referring to ALREADY get free healthcare through Medicaid.

I think you have a low opinion of most people's desire to be independent. For those who have made welfare a way of life unnecessarily, please do clean it up. For those of us with difficult access to healthcare, I'd love to see healthcare reform continue.

Kathyp--I'm not thrilled about the insurance mandate, but tell me how you'd handle everyone who drains the healthcare system when they're not insured but show up in ERs anyway? I think there are rarely lovely, universally popular solutions to difficult problems. I am glad, however, to see how affordable and tiny the fines are since it won't hurt people much at all. It's a tiny slap on the wrist. Although the govt bureaucracy to administer it will be expensive...
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2012, 01:23:35 PM »

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Tell me, how will Obamacare get people more free stuff?

went to my doc and had a routine appointment.  also made an appointment for mammogram and had some labs.  when i was done, i pulled out my credit card to pay as i always do.  was told "no charge".  WTH??  everything i had done was considered preventive care and is now "free" under obama care.  well, someone is paying for it.....

Quote
but tell me how you'd handle everyone who drains the healthcare system when they're not insured but show up in ERs anyway?

this drain on the system is overstated.  not because people don't use the ER as primary care, but because the hospitals mismanage the way they recoup loss.  very rarely will a hospital go after payment.  they might turn it over to a collection agent, but it's not hotly pursued.  hospitals write off the loss.  they also make up the loss on insurance billing.  that's one of the reasons, if you look at your ER bill and what is billed to your insurance, you are getting the 200 dollar band aid.  if you pay cash for an ER visit, your cost is usually less than 1/2 what would be billed to insurance. 

we have been over all the ways that cost could be cut so i won't go there again.  it has nothing/little to do with ER visits by uninsured people.

if the immediate goal was just to cover the uninsured, that could have been done with a simple program.  something along the lines of the federal flood insurance program, or some other type of insurance pool that low income people could buy into on a sliding scale with different levels of coverage.  i still would not be thrilled with another federal program, but it would have gotten the job done and satisfied the need to cover people who were the "working poor". 

covering uninsured people was never the goal.  the left has wanted single payer since the watched germany do it before ww2.  because people in the us are not fond of the idea of government run healthcare, they have done something with this program that will destroy private health care for all but the very wealthy.  after doing that, they can implement single payer as a "cure", because we all know that the solution to a failed government program is a new government program!

to believe that this bill is about helping the uninsured, or controlling the cost of health care, is to believe that the people who wrote and passed this bill are completely incompetent....and downright stupid.  i don't believe that.   this is a step toward THE goal.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sterling
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« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2012, 06:50:43 PM »

iddee--I have always been a keen believer in personal responsibility! And I still want a safety net for those less/incompletely able to care for themselves (or able-bodied people's children).

If you haven't figured it out yet let me clue you in. When people see they can get things free [free food, free phones, free housing, or free health care  they all of a sudden become unable to care for themselves. And all of a sudden think it's their right to get free stuff.
And I continue to enjoy your insults of my intelligence. Tell me, how will Obamacare get people more free stuff? Please give me one example. The welfare folks you are referring to ALREADY get free healthcare through Medicaid.

I think you have a low opinion of most people's desire to be independent. For those who have made welfare a way of life unnecessarily, please do clean it up. For those of us with difficult access to healthcare, I'd love to see healthcare reform continue.

Kathyp--I'm not thrilled about the insurance mandate, but tell me how you'd handle everyone who drains the healthcare system when they're not insured but show up in ERs anyway? I think there are rarely lovely, universally popular solutions to difficult problems. I am glad, however, to see how affordable and tiny the fines are since it won't hurt people much at all. It's a tiny slap on the wrist. Although the govt bureaucracy to administer it will be expensive...

I am not at all trying to insult your intellligence.I'm sorry if I come across like that. I'm trying to get you to think outside of the socialist box.

I am quoting Mr Obama when he said the healthe care bill will provide health care for 45,000,000 million Americans who don't have health care. He didn't say he was replacing Medidcade but providing for 45,000,000 people who didn't have any means for health care. That to me is several million examples.

If most people in the U.S.A were desiring to be independent then Obama would not have gotten relected. Many people that I have talked to about who they voted for in the Nov election said they voted for Obama so they could get FREE health care. Some even have desent jobs. When one votes for a guy to get free stuff independence is not his or her goal.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2012, 09:54:19 PM »

went to my doc and had a routine appointment.  also made an appointment for mammogram and had some labs.  when i was done, i pulled out my credit card to pay as i always do.  was told "no charge".  WTH??  everything i had done was considered preventive care and is now "free" under obama care.  well, someone is paying for it.....
Ask your insurance company when that went into effect. My ins. co. has been doing that long before the new Act. If an insurance company is doing something, it's generally because it helps their bottom line. Doing free preventive care makes a lot more sense long term than letting chronic diseases develop.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
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Is aristocracy.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2012, 10:00:03 PM »

If most people in the U.S.A were desiring to be independent then Obama would not have gotten relected. Many people that I have talked to about who they voted for in the Nov election said they voted for Obama so they could get FREE health care. Some even have desent jobs. When one votes for a guy to get free stuff independence is not his or her goal.
Then they seem sadly uninformed. I would even consider voting Republican to get free healthcare, but it ain't happening with either party. Nobody but the very poor are going to (and already do) get free healthcare (regardless of which party is in office).

Sterling, it seems to be an unwillingness of yours to consider that people voted for Obama for reasons other than welfare. If you insist on seeing everything through that filter, it will be hard for you to understand the many OTHER reasons most people voted for Obama.
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The pedigree of honey
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A clover, any time, to him
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---Emily Dickinson
Vance G
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« Reply #98 on: November 27, 2012, 10:48:50 PM »

People must have voted for Bathhouse Barry because they liked thousands of firearms smuggled into Mexico with no effort to track them so when violence was perpetrated with them, people would clamor for gun control.  Bush stopped  a program where guns with tracking devices were put in play.  That program was stopped 18 months prior to fast and furious because the bad guys figured out how to find and remove the rfid's.

They must have especially liked his Killing Osama, an ambassador, a techie destroying code pages and two navyseals while the White house situation room listened.  Sn admiral and a General who were going to launch forces to help were relieved of duty minutes into this scenario.  Tell me the Boy Blunder didn't know what was going on and make the decisions.  The incompetent American hating Boob!

The takers have gotten control and little matters like national pride and accountability in our leaders just don't compare to the availability of Bama phones and endless welfare with no work requirements.  Then we have those fine Guvmint workers and their unions pulling down salaries and benefits that dwarf similiar pay scales in the civillian sector.  Then we have our education system which doesn't teach history, constitution and does a marginal job of all other tasks save one!  The American Education system is an extremely efficient conduit to launder tax payer dollars into union dues destined for a political party.  I hope you enjoy this fine dead economy continuing ad infinitum.
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kathyp
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« Reply #99 on: November 27, 2012, 10:58:20 PM »

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Doing free preventive care makes a lot more sense long term than letting chronic diseases develop.

1st, it's not free.  it gets paid for by someone, somewhere.  2nd, these are the new requirements of obama care.  

As of Aug. 1, insurance plans are required to cover free annual physicals for women, HIV testing and counseling, HPV DNA testing, screenings for gestational diabetes, screening and counseling for domestic violence, breastfeeding medical support, counseling for sexually transmitted infections, and FDA-approved contraceptive products.  also mammograms and coloscopies.  

several problems are already popping up.  1st, the cost of insurance is going up because there is no "free".  2nd, we already were facing a doctor shortage and this will become more apparent as more people are accessing the system.  this means that all this preventive care may mean nothing because we won't be able to have timely appointments to catch whatever the tests were designed to catch.  one solution is to raise the age for things like mammograms to 50, rather than 40.  this has already been proposed.  
then there is the Independent Payment Advisory Board.  this non-medical and unaccountable board will decide on tests, access, and treatments based on any number of things....excluding what you and your doctor decide.  this is another cost saving scheme.  if you want to know how this might go, you should know that people like Ezekiel Emanuel helped the president put the health care bill together.  he is Rham's brother.  he has written all kinds of interesting thing about euthanasia, rationed care, etc.  of course, all in the interest of providing the most care to the most useful among us.

interesting that the liberal solution to every problem is to bring the top down, rather than the bottom up....

Quote
it will be hard for you to understand the many OTHER reasons most people voted for Obama.


what would those other reasons be?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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