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Author Topic: I think I have an idea  (Read 5327 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 08:45:20 PM »

OMT

would a state offer a tax break to a business if that tax break caused a net negative to the state? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 08:50:24 PM »

And yet we do have corporations paying little to no taxes. It's a big problem here in WI. They bring in jobs, yes, yet so many are low paying and some of these businesses become an overall tax burden when their employees need welfare. (see Wal-Mart for one example). Some of them (like WM) create an overall loss in jobs when other businesses shut down when they move into town.

Paying taxes is not punishment. Paying taxes is helping to fund the things we all use--police, fire, roads, schools, libraries, etc.

I would call minimum wage underpaid. With DH and I both working, driving our vehicles into the ground, buying 2nd hand clothes, growing and putting up a huge portion of our food and being overall frugal, we still are not rolling in money, and together we bring in a solidly middle class income. I cannot even imagine the struggle of someone trying to live off minimum wages. I happen to believe that ALL jobs should provide a living wage, but if we as a society decide that some of our work is not worth that, then I want a safety net for those folks.

Great profit is when a CEO is earning 200+ times what the lowest paid employee is earning. I have my own small business. My husband runs the family farm. I get not wanting to drown in taxes and I get wanting to earn a profit. We bust our butts to make a living. However, I could not actually sleep at night if I were to someday earn millions per year while the people also necessary to run my business earned $16,000 per year and could barely or not quite make it.

Kathy, my state is run by Republicans right now. They are very interested in job creation, right? And tax incentives. It's a fine balance. I want jobs here, too. I don't actually have an answer for this. You (as a state) want to attract business, but at what point did we start nearly paying businesses for the privilege of moving to our state?
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luvin honey
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 08:51:41 PM »

OMT

would a state offer a tax break to a business if that tax break caused a net negative to the state? 
not sure what OMT means.

Your question assumes all politicians are honest, and that all decisions are made for the best of the people, state, nation. And here I thought you were more cynical than that  Wink
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 08:53:55 PM »

one more thing. 

ok. so why would they want to attract business that is a net loss to the state? 

Quote
You (as a state) want to attract business, but at what point did we start nearly paying businesses for the privilege of moving to our state?

is it a privilege to move to your state?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2012, 09:05:16 PM »

one more thing. 

ok. so why would they want to attract business that is a net loss to the state? 

Quote
You (as a state) want to attract business, but at what point did we start nearly paying businesses for the privilege of moving to our state?

is it a privilege to move to your state?
Citizen tax rates are pretty high, but I love it here Smiley

I think it's a conundrum. Who wants to lose tax revenue from businesses? Yet, who wants those businesses to move to other states dangling a nice juicy carrot?

Plus, when you're running for office, isn't is awesome to be able to offer JOBS!! and not mention the tax part of it all? I don't know, but I suspect both sides do it.
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The pedigree of honey
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minz
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2012, 11:29:39 PM »

So what is your take on the Port of Portland terminal fight?
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2012/11/port_of_portland_container_ter.html
Union is doing its best to shut down the terminal operator for 2 jobs.  Looks like the biggest shipper is not going to play and taking their cargo north.  Christmas coming and the big retailers can not have all their freight locked up on the docks. 
I agree that there is a point to unions but this is just crazy game of chicken with millions of dollars of payroll at risk.


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luvin honey
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2012, 08:43:16 AM »

minz, I didn't read the link. My parents have their own construction company and have told me about private labor unions. They're pretty appalling. Having read about the days of America during the Industrial Revolution, I believe in the need for unions. I think they've outgrown their usefulness for the main part and need serious reform.

However, in WI they have been bulldozed by our new governor so it will be interesting to see what happens. I haven't seen much good so far. My coworker's husband was employed by a union. Their paycheck was cut by $600/month. That's huge. When he developed cancer in May, it became extremely difficult for them to make their house payments, after that large of a cut and his inability to make overtime hours. He also lost 190 days of sick time--everyone had it wiped clean. He just died 2 weeks ago and I'm sure my coworker would have appreciated 190 days of pay that he had built up in sick days not taken over decades of work in his job.

So, while I believe the unions have gotten corrupt, I also see their purpose.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 12:06:25 PM »

minz, that Port of Portland thing is nuts.  i never would have believed that they would fight over something so stupid, or that something so stupid would even be a union issue!  to be honest, i'd like to see them all out of work just for being dumb.

luvin, your gov has gone after public sector unions.  thank god someone has had the nuts to start going after them.  other states, many democrat, are doing the same.  
a private sector union, when it bargains for what it wants, bargains against the company.  the union pretty much knows the bottom line and what they can and can't reasonably expect to get.

when a public sector union bargains, they bargain against the tax payer.  the union considers the tax payer a bottomless well.  after all, people can always be taxed just a little more.  the benefits and legacy costs are the reason that most states in trouble, are in trouble.  my state, deep blue as it is, is trying to do something with our public sector unions also.  they are breaking the budget.  so far, we are lucky that we are not in the kind of shape as some other states, but it wouldn't take much.
CA- one of the major problems in their budget, along with welfare in all it's iterations, is the public sector unions.  it's not just the states, but individual counties, cities, etc.  

i would put a link to FDRs letter on public unions, but you don't do links so.....

the Ding Dong thing breaks my heart.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bluegrass
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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 12:49:47 PM »

I have an idea... I am going to go out and heft some hives, knock on them a bit and listen for the soft humming sound.. smile and think what a great life we have and dream of the first signs of spring... Soon it will be time to make my annual April trip down the east coast to pickup 600 3# packages... Just thinking about the sound of bees in the air on install day... it is amazing.

In 4 more years we will be back here again... with the same old arguments and points... The same cries of an end of an era and no turning back.... most of us will forget the predictions of how bad it was going to be... new predictions will be made and as time tics on those too will often prove false or not as bad as everybody thought. With every moment we are closer to death and none of this will mater. Like the honey bee who gathers the honey for the survival of the colony over the long winter... generation after she is dead... She does not sit down and give up just because it has no benefit for her... she pushes forward for the greater good.
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iddee
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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 01:17:36 PM »

BB, come down I-77 and stop in here. I will have a place for you to spend the night and eat a good meal, and we can talk bees and forget our national troubles for a bit. May even have a bit of liquid refreshment if you so desire.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
T Beek
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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2012, 02:35:13 PM »

OK. I'll go out on a limb here, I've got enough scar tissue to absorb the assault.

Living Wage defind by T Beek:  Anyone working 40 hours a week for someone else, whether flipping burgers, clerking at a store, driving a school bus or changing Grandma's diapers s/b bringing home a 'minimum' of $50K IMO (there goes the 'working poor' and the people so many love to hate).  

If that means someone at the top has to take a bit less well so be it.  Frankly I don't believe the MYTH that such actions would decrease entrepreneurship.  It NEVER did before.  It would however encourage production from happy employees as has been repeatedly shown by our more responsible employers.

People in the above positions work as hard and have as much responsibility as any millionaire if not more so,  and "do" actually provide a tangible service to others in their communities,

.......as w/ the millionaire we're never quite sure, are we?

That's my definition anyway.  I suppose I could be convinced on an increase or a decrease depending on the rational, w/ emphases on RATIONAL  grin argument, but you're gonna have to step outside the box at least a little cool.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2012, 02:43:43 PM »

BB, come down I-77 and stop in here.
That sounds like fun iddee.  I really enjoy the drive down I-77, there is some beautiful country along that road.  I just don’t get to do much traveling anymore, but I will send you PM if I'm ever down that way again.  Heck, I bet we could find lots of things we basically agree on; especially the bees.
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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2012, 04:39:45 PM »

Quote
Anyone working 40 hours a week for someone else, whether flipping burgers, clerking at a store, driving a school bus or changing Grandma's diapers s/b bringing home a 'minimum' of $50K IMO (there goes the 'working poor' and the people so many love to hate). 

first of all, i don't hate the working poor.  i just don't think poverty is a disease that society needs to cure.  it's a condition that the poor need to work out of, if they wish to.  and not all seem to care that much.  in fact, there are people who live in poverty by choice.  i also think that people should be responsible for the choices they make and the majority of long term poverty among those of normal mental capacity and normal physical condition is due to the decisions they have made. 

so...you don't see the price of goods and services going up when wages go up?  if there is an equivalent rise in cost of living, what has been gained.  you make more, you pay more,  you are where you started. 
the only way this works is to impose price control along with it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2012, 06:01:50 PM »

first of all, i don't hate the working poor.  i just don't think poverty is a disease that society needs to cure.  it's a condition that the poor need to work out of, if they wish to.  and not all seem to care that much.  in fact, there are people who live in poverty by choice.  i also think that people should be responsible for the choices they make and the majority of long term poverty among those of normal mental capacity and normal physical condition is due to the decisions they have made. 
You don't hate the working poor, but they "need to work out of" their condition? What?! They are working! The hardest jobs I've ever had were very poorly paid--minimum wage. I was fortunately single and sharing student housing at the time. I still bust my butt farming for low wages, but at least now it's more a matter of choice.

It is so, so easy to blame poverty on people's choices. If you're worried about the cost of products going up, start asking CEOs to take less exorbitant pay. Perhaps they could pay their employees more AND not have our costs go up. Some companies are doing this, so give them your business and boycott those who aren't.

My parents have their own business. When the economy tanked, they cut their income altogether. They'd had enough good years that they were able to do so. Their goal was to keep the business alive and their employees working. I'd like to see more of that kind of decency among the corporate world. I see no reason at all for someone to let their employees scrape by, doing the work that lets the CEO earn 500 times what their employees earn.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
iddee
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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2012, 06:29:15 PM »

Question for Tbeek. If you ran a business and hired a new employee who you knew would add 30,000 per year to your income, would you still pay him 50,000 per year and go broke, or would you send him home, or reduce his wages.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
iddee
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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2012, 06:30:42 PM »

BB, door's open and the coffee pot's on. I think we believe a lot of the same thing, but with different ways of expressing.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kathyp
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2012, 06:44:06 PM »

Quote
You don't hate the working poor, but they "need to work out of" their condition? What?! They are working! The hardest jobs I've ever had were very poorly paid--minimum wage. I was fortunately single and sharing student housing at the time. I still bust my butt farming for low wages, but at least now it's more a matter of choice.

It is so, so easy to blame poverty on people's choices. If you're worried about the cost of products going up, start asking CEOs to take less exorbitant pay. Perhaps they could pay their employees more AND not have our costs go up. Some companies are doing this, so give them your business and boycott those who aren't.

My parents have their own business. When the economy tanked, they cut their income altogether. They'd had enough good years that they were able to do so. Their goal was to keep the business alive and their employees working. I'd like to see more of that kind of decency among the corporate world. I see no reason at all for someone to let their employees scrape by, doing the work that lets the CEO earn 500 times what their employees earn.

business exists to make money.  it's not a jobs program, or a get out of poverty program, or a social welfare program.  i will agree with you that if you don't like the way a certain business runs things, you should not buy their stuff.  i don't buy Apple products.  they are over priced and i don't like the way they do business.  beyond that, i don't care how they run things.  it's not my business.  if the shareholders care, they might want to do something.

it's nice that your parents can afford to do that and that they want to.  it is their choice.  i would not demonize them if they made a different choice. 

yes, the working poor need to work out of it...and guess what?  a large number of them do.  we do not have a class society.  we are only limited by the choices we make and the amount of work we are willing to do.  poverty need not be a permanent condition.  it's all about choices, and your own life is testament to that.  you could have had a child while you were single, taken welfare and lived in public housing, married/been a dead beat drug user, etc.  you must have made good choices and you are now at least comfortable.  that's what most of us wish for.  that's what most of us work toward.  those who don't, don't deserve to have what we have earned.

that is not to say that there should not be some safety net for folks who have bad things happen.  it should be limited in amount and time.  it should not reward bad behavior.  it certainly should not be a career choice or generational life style.  as my father said when he kicked my brother out the door "starvation is a great motivator!".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2012, 07:28:26 PM »

Luvinhoney you have an anticapitalist pro socialist mindset.
I have a struggling small, because of the economy, construction business. When I had several employees I paid them pretty good and gave them benefits in the form of health ins. bonuses ect. But i didn't pay them all the same wage because they were not worth the same wage. I had supervisers, equipment operators, truck drivers, labors ect. I try to pay them what they are worth and the fact is some employes are worth more then others. To expect an employer to have to pay everyone the same is not at all fair to the person who tries harder and does a better job then the person working beside him or her.
If you paid a minimum wage that was equal to the average family income to a person putting lettuce on hamburgers at Mac Donalds then the price of a hamburger would not be affordable.
 And that would have the same affect on that persons attitude as The War on Poverty has had on the ones on the receiving end of that Govt. program. Which is. Why should I work any harder or try to learn more when I'm getting the same pay as my boss?
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2012, 08:12:22 PM »

Well luvin honey,if you have children your wanting to leave the farm to ypu'll likely be happy to know your probably rich. And in being rich your children will be able to take a strong swing at the deficit if they inherit the farm. I hope you still feels as good about the wealthy paying their fair share:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/16/ranchers-farmers-brace-for-death-tax-impact/
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« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2012, 08:20:40 PM »

I am a firm believer that if we got closer to full employment wages will rise because employers will have to compete for the labor force.This is where health care came about as a benefit.  But I have also seen people behind the counters at McDonalds and such places that I question if minimum wage may be too much. Most people start at minimum wage and work their way up. The ones that do nothing to advance their position in life are not automatically entitled to the fruits of those who do.But many a libs think the only way you make a good living is stealing away someone elses.
I can tell you if I ran a business with employees that worked directly with the public and they came in with a face full of hardware,it would do little to encourage me to hire them. I know it's personal expression and all that,but it would not be the image I would want my business expressing. And many of these kids are the ones getting stuck in low end jobs.
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