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Author Topic: FGMO Fogging  (Read 3837 times)
Maryland Beekeeper
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 06:12:33 PM »

Finski,
 Very interesting, thank you for that, I can't seem to find the actual study though, do you have the link ? I'd be curious to read their methodology. 8 hives for 6 weeks makes me a bit suspicious. Especially since I fogged a colony,(prime swarm hived in may), for the first time last weekend and now I have an oil trap peppered w/ mites for the first time.
Cheers,
Drew
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jredburn
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 07:49:22 PM »

There is an old saying in scientific circles that states "You only find what your are looking for."
Reading the summary, it sounds like they found just what they went looking for.
Just one old mans opinion.
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Maryland Beekeeper
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 08:00:26 PM »

Perhaps that is it, but a search shows both names to be reputable, I would suspect a flaw in their method. Did they fog once then check results 6 weeks later? That would explain their conclusions.
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Drew
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iddee
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 09:41:48 PM »

Here are the instructions I got from Dr. Rodriquez. I do not think the study quoted above followed them, or the results would have been different. To the best of my memory, I THINK he recommended fogging once weekly until the mite count was acceptable, then as needed afterward.


 FGMO-THYMOL FORMULA FOR CORDS AND BURGESS FOGGER
(Do not use thymol in your formula with honey supers on)
The purpose of the FGMO-Thymol for these formulae is to obtain a concentration of thymol no higher than 5.49% thymol for the fogger and 2.53% thymol for the emulsion soaked cords.
Emulsion soaked cords
1000 cc mineral oil @ 0.86 density
(*) (860 grams (30.34 oz.))
100 grams (3.53 oz.) thymol
1000 grams honey (2-1/4 pounds)
1000 grams beeswax (2-1/4 pounds)
100 pieces of cotton cord (40 inches long each)
Add the weight of the ingredients without the cords
Divide into 100 grams thymol

Thus:
100 = 2.53 % thymol
3960 total weight

Fogger
1000 cc mineral oil @ 0.86 density
(*) (860 grams (30.34 oz.))
50 grams (1.76 oz.) thymol
Add the weight of above
Divide into 50 grams thymol

Thus:
50 = 5.49 % thymol
910 total weight

(*) 1000 cc of FGMO of 0.86 density weighs 860 grams
Remove 100 cc FGMO from 1000 cc to dilute thymol. See instructions below.


Instructions for diluting thymol
These instructions replace previous instructions for dilution of thymol with alcohol. Even though alcohol utilized for dilution of the thymol evaporates readily, I wish to dismiss potential offenses to millions of brothers in faith who oppose use of alcohol. The new formulae are not only more cost-effective and not offensive to non-alcohol consumers, but also easier to prepare minimizing the risk of adding a flammable agent to the formula.


Instructions for making dilution for the fogger
Remove 100 cc FGMO from the 1000 cc intended for mixture. Place 100 cc FGMO in a mason jar. Add 50 grams thymol for fogger and 100 grams for emulsion cords, and secure cup tightly. Place a metal container filled with water (e.g. cooking ware) on a heat source. Place glass jar with the 100 cc FGMO and thymol in the water of the heating vessel. Swish/swirl jar as the water heats up until thymol dissolves completely. Solution will become slightly amber in color (normal change). The solution is now ready to add to the rest of the FGMO intended for use in the fogger or the cords.


Instructions for making FGMO-thymol emulsion
Place 900 cc FGMO in a metal or ceramic container and place container over a heat source. Allow oil to heat. Add 1000 grams (2-1/4 pounds) beeswax and stir well until wax is totally melted. Remove container from heat source. Add 1000 grams (2-1/4 pounds honey) and stir well until it blends into wax-FGMO mixture. Add 100 cc FGMO-thymol mixture previously diluted as per instructions above. Add cords immediately and stir until they are well soaked with the solution. Pack cords in a tightly sealed container and store in a cool place. Your emulsion-soaked cords will be ready to use as soon as the emulsion cools.


Instructions for making FGMO-thymol mixture for fogger
Add 100 cc FGMO-thymol mixture (obtained as per instructions above for diluting thymol) to 900 cc FGMO (remainder of the 1000 cc needed) and shake well. This will result in a 5.49 % FGMO-thymol solution. Fill your fogger container. You are now ready to fog. Set fogger on a level, steady surface. Turn gas valve to the left 1/4 turn. Listen for a slight hissing sound from your fogger. Light your fogger from underneath (I recommend using a butane stove lighter for this purpose). Wait. You should notice a drop or two of oil dripping from the spout of the fogger. Next, you should notice a small emission of oil mist similar to that of a lit cigarette. Next, the fogger will emit a larger puff of oil mist. The fogger is now ready for fogging. Holding the fogger parallel to the ground, point the nozzle directly at your hive entrance. DO NOT AIM THE FOGGER DOWNWARD! Place a tray or shield below the hive if you use screen-bottom boards to direct flow of mist into the hive. Pull the trigger of the fogger 3-4 times, while you count 1001, 1002, 1003, and 1004, depending on the population size of your hives. When fogging, please wear a respirator for safety reasons. Never add any other ingredient to your fogger when following this procedure. Do not use foggers that may have been used for spraying pesticides previously. Residues from the insecticide may have remained imbedded in the container. These residues would then be transferred to your FGMO-thymol solution and result in probable bee kills.    
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2012, 10:02:48 PM »

Iddee,

Thank you very much for these detailed instructions.  As soon as the weather cooperates - probably spring over here - I'll give it a try.

Maybe the Dr. Rodgriguez in Finski's post was a different Dr. Rodriguez?   grin
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"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism
Finski
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2012, 04:17:53 AM »

.

That fogging is over 10 years old method. If it is good for something, it should be normal procedure all over the world. But it is not. Like in NZ it is forbidden and not even told  how to do it.

2009 one guy in USA tried to do 3 years experiment  with fogging and during two  first years he did not succeed even to fog his hives.

I wonder what are you going to do to your hives, you propel heads!  Have you taken your pills?



.

 
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little john
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2012, 04:41:56 AM »

There is an old saying in scientific circles that states "You only find what your are looking for."
Reading the summary, it sounds like they found just what they went looking for.
Just one old mans opinion.

A cynical view ... but sadly one that's all too true. I'd be interested in who funded that research.

LJ
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Finski
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 06:59:24 AM »

.
Old mans opinion.....same opinion

I would  like to be 15 y like I was  50 y ago, but somehow I am  not.

I was youngest beekeeper in society when I joined to it.

Many think that my 30 y experiences with varroa makes me only stupid.
Amen to that!


llife teaches

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iddee
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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 07:38:15 AM »

"""Many think that my 30 y experiences with varroa makes me only stupid.""""

NO, Finski's 30 years with varroa makes Finski think all others are stupid.

2sox, Finski's article was done by Patti Elzen and Robert  Cox, not Dr. R. They also used FGMO only, not with thymol. I would imagine they did or didn't do other things also that skewered the results.

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 09:31:14 AM »

"""Many think that my 30 y experiences with varroa makes me only stupid.""""

NO, Finski's 30 years with varroa makes Finski think all others are stupid.

2sox, Finski's article was done by Patti Elzen and Robert  Cox, not Dr. R. They also used FGMO only, not with thymol. I would imagine they did or didn't do other things also that skewered the results.



sure.

However, USA comes 10 years behind Europe in varroa issues. Same with Canada.

But I have written before that beekeeping companies want to make business with varroa.
They do not want that you pay only 40 cents for one hive treatment. They want that you pay 4 dollars. It is same in UK.

Your Universities want to make same researches in USA which have done 10 y ago in European Varroa Group.  i have written about these things in this forum for years.

Thanks Pal, I make you stupid but you really are. But even if you notice that, you do nothing to help yourself.  Do nothing is you favorit advice. But humbug, that suits well.
Do nothing is the most expencive treatment.

All those researches, what I have linked, are written with your native language.
You admire your "scientific beekeeper", who has done not a single research. He just write about issues which others are done.

.when European Varroa Group selected 1998- 2006  the best methods to treat varroa, i have not found that new methods have appeared.  But forums pull up 20 y old treatments as new innovation. What ever poisons to hives, who cares!


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iddee
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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2012, 09:59:59 AM »

Thanks for the laugh. I needed a good one this morning.

After treating for years, I learned the best and least expensive method is "do nothing". I have done no treatments for over 5 years and have fewer mites than I ever had when treating. Supporting poor genetics is a waste of time and money, and only prolongs the time before mites are no longer a problem.

The best route to take is find a resistant bee and propagate them. Let the others die. Then you have a sustainable population that doesn't rob you and then die out.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2012, 10:34:16 AM »

Thanks for the laugh. I needed a good one this morning.

After treating for years, I learned the best and least expensive method is "do nothing". I have done no treatments for over 5 years and have fewer mites than I eve

i have studied biology and genetics in University and I have kept bees 50 years.

I have followed your reporst how USA fight against varroa.
I have followed how many countries keep on projects how to breed mite tolerant bees.
You have your Russian bee program, but it is quite silent around it.

In my country there are couple of guys who had breeded mite tolerant bee strains but other beekeepers do not what those buggs. Do nothing strains have some other problems.

Many hobbiests have succeeded in "do nothing treatments" but why professional do not use those methods?

In official US reports varroa is the worst problem in beekeeping. Why?
When I have read MAAREC's advices how to treat varroa, they are not clever at all.

In varroa issue Europe has nothing to learn varroa issue. Yes we know that do nothing method too.

.

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2Sox
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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2012, 10:42:57 AM »

So, what would you suggest to treat for varroa, Finski?  What methods do you use?

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Finski
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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2012, 11:11:14 AM »

.
In European countries normal procedures are

-formic acid or thymol gasification when honey yield has taken away
- oxalic acid trickling for broodless hives in winter.

These stuffs have many product names.

A leading varroa researcher is Italian professor Antonio Nanetti.
His reports are easy to understand

 





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iddee
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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2012, 01:03:37 PM »

To answer your question in simple words,

Hobbyists want live bees.

Professionals want dollars.

There lies the difference.

As the years pass, the bees developed by hobbyists will make their way to the professionals.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2012, 01:08:59 PM »

Iddee,

I think you've hit on something. I've kept back from treating my bees with anything for the last five years.  I've had some losses but something keeps whispering to me, "A successful parasite doesn't kill it's host.  Eventually things will reach a dynamic equilibrium and the bees will adapt."  In the meantime, there is a good deal of pain for bees and beekeeper.
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"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism
Finski
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2012, 01:10:05 PM »

.
Amen. Level understood.
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d_fixitman
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« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2012, 01:11:20 PM »

2Sox, pm me your email and I will send pics of a very recent test I performed using fgmo fogging and vaporizing oxalic acid. I have bottom board pics of 24 hour drops after each treatment.
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d_fixitman
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2012, 04:36:25 PM »

I attempted to add pics to the pm reply....
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Finski
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« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2012, 04:56:12 PM »

2Sox, pm me your email and I will send pics of a very recent test I performed using fgmo fogging and vaporizing oxalic acid. I have bottom board pics of 24 hour drops after each treatment.

mites drop 4 weeks after oxalic acid fogging. 24 h does not mean much.
2 week has biggest drop.
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