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Author Topic: FGMO Fogging  (Read 3612 times)
2Sox
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« on: November 10, 2012, 04:19:05 PM »

I've heard of good results from using mineral oil in a propane fogger for the control of mites. The Fat Bee Man swears by it.  Since the oil coats everything in the hive, I'm curious how it affect the honey.  I have visions of a thin film of oil floating on top of any honey that is extracted.  What have been your experiences?  And opinions.
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 04:48:28 PM »

.
What ever you have heard, but that is nonsense. Question is not about mite killing but about human food production
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 04:50:54 PM »

Finski,
And....?
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 04:57:17 PM »

.

Here is recommendations from Switzerland to treat varroa.
Methods are in middle left

http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/index.html?lang=en

Those methods are result of 10 years researches what are best methods now.
That better has not been invented after publication od European Varroa Group reports..
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2012, 08:46:24 AM »

Finski,

Thank you.  Very good reading.

Michael,

Regarding the wax combs softening due to the application of FGMO.  Do you have the references that point to the research on this? Thanks. 
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 05:14:33 PM »

 Did final inspection of season and fogged w/ FGMO last weekend. Brought one indoors to winter today, I have an oil tray peppered w/ Varroa. Thankx Fat B Man.
Cheers,
Drew
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 09:22:13 PM »

Good to hear.  I haven't been able to do any fogging because of the temperatures.  Couldn't get to the bees on those warm days that just passed. Sad
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2012, 06:05:31 AM »

I am interested in trying the fogging as well.  Did you see in another video The Fatbeeman mentioned putting 15 drops of wintergreen or spearmint EO in the fogger?  20 drops for heavy mite load.
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 07:43:00 AM »

I am interested in trying the fogging as well.  Did you see in another video The Fatbeeman mentioned putting 15 drops of wintergreen or spearmint EO in the fogger?  20 drops for heavy mite load.

140 chemicals have used in varroa killing. Are you going to try them all what guys tell?

Human food processing, you see.

I like like smoked fish, but I have never heard that some prepare smoked fish with exhaust gas.
Just put a garden host from car's exhaust pipe to the hive ...



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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 08:06:48 AM »

 I did see the wintergreen tip. Haven't been there yet. In my limited research there seems to be some disagreement as to its risk to humans. Some going so far as to say that a few drops is enough to kill you. I wear a respirator w/ plain FGMO so I certainly would wear one if I added the wintergreen. But as far as I'm concerned the effects of the FGMO fog on honey bee colonies are indisputable, B's are unharmed and mites are dead. I believe it will be a regular part of my management plan going forward, but if I was to hear from a few reputable sources that a hose attached to my exhaust pipe would help, I would be more than willing to try that as well  Wink

Cheers,
Drew
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2012, 12:11:51 PM »

Drew,
I believe The Fat Beeman used tea tree oil - not wintergreen.  Or at least I haven't heard about wintergreen being used.
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 12:39:18 PM »

Tea tree for nosema, wintergreen for mites.
Cheers,
Drew
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 12:41:25 PM »

Good to know.  Thanks!
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 01:15:01 PM »

 Clarification : Tea tree in syrup for feeding not for fogging.
Drew
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 01:51:21 PM »

FGMO...... What does the FG stand for?

It is not going to hurt the honey. I fogged for years with FGMO and thymol. Never saw anything other than positive results.

Besides, when I was young, ""a couple hundred years ago"", my parents would give us a teaspoon of mineral oil for colds. Long before the food grade designation was used.
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 01:54:22 PM »

Hi Drew - I was also interested in using FGMO as an anti-varroa measure, until I heard about Oxalic Acid vapour - or rather, sublimination.

Seeing as natural traces of Oxalic Acid are found in honey anyway, it's a method I'll be trying next. Sod dripping the stuff along the frames - I was never convinced that was an effective method of spreading it around.

Shouldn't be too difficult to make a suitable heater/blower - something along the lines of a current-limited vehicle cigarette lighter with a computer CPU fan to blow the vapour along a tube and into the hive. Maybe 5 minutes a hive ?

Important to stay upwind of course.

LJ

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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 02:33:44 PM »

-FG stands for food grade.

-Plenty of stuff on homemade OA vaporizers on here. Good results from accounts I have seen, and the Fat B Man uses it so it must work good Smiley

Cheers,
Drew
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 04:17:56 PM »

.
Varroa Control it's a serious problem in the Argentine and world wide Beekeeping. Recent experiences with Mineral Oil (FGMO) have generated a great expectation for their easy application, effectiveness, low cost and harmless.
This is a special edition of "Espacio Apícola" that contains all the investigation works developed by the Dr. Pedro Pablo Rodríguez using FGMO for the control of the Acarus Varroa jacobsoni Oudemans and the Acarus Acarapis woodi, supplemented with an important work of investigation of the Dr. Jorge Augusto Marcangeli on the hygienic behaviour of Apis mellifera L.

Update on April of 2001
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 04:26:46 PM »

.
Title: Evaluation of Food Grade Mineral Oil Treatment for Varroa Control
Authors


 Elzen, Patti 
 Cox, Robert 


Submitted to: American Bee Journal
Publication Type: Popular Publication
Publication Acceptance Date: May 25, 2004
Publication Date: November 1, 2004
Citation: Elzen, P.J., Cox, R.L. 2004. Evaluation of food grade mineral oil treatment for varroa control. American Bee Journal. 144(12):921-923.

Interpretive Summary: The Varroa mite (Varroa destructor) is the most serious pest attacking honey bees in the United States. Without control measures applied, an entire apiary can collapse in as little as two years. Currently there are four miticides approved by the United States EPA for national or specific state use against Varroa: Apistan® (fluvalinate), CheckMite+® (coumaphos), Sucrocide® (sucrose octanoate esters) and Api Life Var® (a blend of thymol, menthol, eucalyptus, and camphor).

Both Apistan and CheckMite have given excellent control in the past, but now Varroa has developed resistance to these compounds in many parts of the United States. Therefore, new Varroa control methods are very much in need at the present time. The goals in developing new compounds for Varroa control are that the product be effective, produce minimal effects on colony and queen viability, have little concerns for human safety (both in application and in residues), and be easy to apply and economical to treat.

Beekeeper testimonials from various countries indicate that food grade mineral oil (FGMO) provides effective control of Varroa. Food grade mineral oil applied with an insect fogger was evaluated for Varroa mite control in honey bee colonies by comparison to an industry standard, coumaphos strips, and an untreated control group (eight colonies per treatment group). During the six-week test period, the Varroa populations increased in untreated colonies and those treated with FGMO, while those treated with coumaphos strips decreased greatly.

 Coumaphos-treated colonies averaged 96.1 to 99.4% fewer Varroa than the untreated colonies. These data indicate that under South Texas spring conditions, FGMO fogging of hives is of no benefit in controlling Varroa mite populations or improving the overall health of the colony during a 6-week test period.

In contrast, coumaphos worked very well to control mite populations, allowed colonies to grow in population size and increase honey stores. Efficacy was measured in several ways, all indicating greater than 90% control of Varroa compared to the untreated colonies. These results agree with a previous report that FGMO is largely ineffective in Varroa control. In addition to providing no control for Varroa, FGMO applied in an insect fogger may pose a fire and/or health hazard to beekeepers and bees.

The health hazard of exposure to FGMO through inhalation and exposed skin is unknown. Possible contamination of honey and other beehive products with FGMO or any byproducts of heating the oil is also cause for concern. Some beekeepers and bee researchers have suggested using the FGMO as a carrier to apply other miticides to the colony. Exposure to a "hard chemical" such as an organophosphate insecticide in oil during this fogging application method through inhalation or the skin may pose significant human health threat to the beekeeper. This practice should be strongly discouraged.


Technical Abstract: Food grade mineral oil (FGMO) applied with an insect fogger was evaluated for varroa mite control in honey bee colonies by comparison to an industry standard, coumaphos strips, and an untreated control group (eight colonies per treatment group). During the six-week test period, the Varroa populations increased in untreated colonies and those treated with FGMO, while those treated with coumaphos strips decreased greatly and, consequently, averaged 96.1 to 99.4% fewer Varroa than the untreated colonies at the end of the test period, by the alcohol wash and sticky board methods, respectively. In addition to providing no control for Varroa, FGMO applied in an insect fogger may pose a fire and/or health hazard to beekeepers and bees.

 
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 05:43:15 PM »

Finski,

Thank you so much for this.  I am very surprised that FGMO had absolutely no effect at all on varroa control.  Has there been any other research done besides that of Dr. Rodriquez?
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 06:12:33 PM »

Finski,
 Very interesting, thank you for that, I can't seem to find the actual study though, do you have the link ? I'd be curious to read their methodology. 8 hives for 6 weeks makes me a bit suspicious. Especially since I fogged a colony,(prime swarm hived in may), for the first time last weekend and now I have an oil trap peppered w/ mites for the first time.
Cheers,
Drew
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 07:49:22 PM »

There is an old saying in scientific circles that states "You only find what your are looking for."
Reading the summary, it sounds like they found just what they went looking for.
Just one old mans opinion.
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 08:00:26 PM »

Perhaps that is it, but a search shows both names to be reputable, I would suspect a flaw in their method. Did they fog once then check results 6 weeks later? That would explain their conclusions.
Cheers,
Drew
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 09:41:48 PM »

Here are the instructions I got from Dr. Rodriquez. I do not think the study quoted above followed them, or the results would have been different. To the best of my memory, I THINK he recommended fogging once weekly until the mite count was acceptable, then as needed afterward.


 FGMO-THYMOL FORMULA FOR CORDS AND BURGESS FOGGER
(Do not use thymol in your formula with honey supers on)
The purpose of the FGMO-Thymol for these formulae is to obtain a concentration of thymol no higher than 5.49% thymol for the fogger and 2.53% thymol for the emulsion soaked cords.
Emulsion soaked cords
1000 cc mineral oil @ 0.86 density
(*) (860 grams (30.34 oz.))
100 grams (3.53 oz.) thymol
1000 grams honey (2-1/4 pounds)
1000 grams beeswax (2-1/4 pounds)
100 pieces of cotton cord (40 inches long each)
Add the weight of the ingredients without the cords
Divide into 100 grams thymol

Thus:
100 = 2.53 % thymol
3960 total weight

Fogger
1000 cc mineral oil @ 0.86 density
(*) (860 grams (30.34 oz.))
50 grams (1.76 oz.) thymol
Add the weight of above
Divide into 50 grams thymol

Thus:
50 = 5.49 % thymol
910 total weight

(*) 1000 cc of FGMO of 0.86 density weighs 860 grams
Remove 100 cc FGMO from 1000 cc to dilute thymol. See instructions below.


Instructions for diluting thymol
These instructions replace previous instructions for dilution of thymol with alcohol. Even though alcohol utilized for dilution of the thymol evaporates readily, I wish to dismiss potential offenses to millions of brothers in faith who oppose use of alcohol. The new formulae are not only more cost-effective and not offensive to non-alcohol consumers, but also easier to prepare minimizing the risk of adding a flammable agent to the formula.


Instructions for making dilution for the fogger
Remove 100 cc FGMO from the 1000 cc intended for mixture. Place 100 cc FGMO in a mason jar. Add 50 grams thymol for fogger and 100 grams for emulsion cords, and secure cup tightly. Place a metal container filled with water (e.g. cooking ware) on a heat source. Place glass jar with the 100 cc FGMO and thymol in the water of the heating vessel. Swish/swirl jar as the water heats up until thymol dissolves completely. Solution will become slightly amber in color (normal change). The solution is now ready to add to the rest of the FGMO intended for use in the fogger or the cords.


Instructions for making FGMO-thymol emulsion
Place 900 cc FGMO in a metal or ceramic container and place container over a heat source. Allow oil to heat. Add 1000 grams (2-1/4 pounds) beeswax and stir well until wax is totally melted. Remove container from heat source. Add 1000 grams (2-1/4 pounds honey) and stir well until it blends into wax-FGMO mixture. Add 100 cc FGMO-thymol mixture previously diluted as per instructions above. Add cords immediately and stir until they are well soaked with the solution. Pack cords in a tightly sealed container and store in a cool place. Your emulsion-soaked cords will be ready to use as soon as the emulsion cools.


Instructions for making FGMO-thymol mixture for fogger
Add 100 cc FGMO-thymol mixture (obtained as per instructions above for diluting thymol) to 900 cc FGMO (remainder of the 1000 cc needed) and shake well. This will result in a 5.49 % FGMO-thymol solution. Fill your fogger container. You are now ready to fog. Set fogger on a level, steady surface. Turn gas valve to the left 1/4 turn. Listen for a slight hissing sound from your fogger. Light your fogger from underneath (I recommend using a butane stove lighter for this purpose). Wait. You should notice a drop or two of oil dripping from the spout of the fogger. Next, you should notice a small emission of oil mist similar to that of a lit cigarette. Next, the fogger will emit a larger puff of oil mist. The fogger is now ready for fogging. Holding the fogger parallel to the ground, point the nozzle directly at your hive entrance. DO NOT AIM THE FOGGER DOWNWARD! Place a tray or shield below the hive if you use screen-bottom boards to direct flow of mist into the hive. Pull the trigger of the fogger 3-4 times, while you count 1001, 1002, 1003, and 1004, depending on the population size of your hives. When fogging, please wear a respirator for safety reasons. Never add any other ingredient to your fogger when following this procedure. Do not use foggers that may have been used for spraying pesticides previously. Residues from the insecticide may have remained imbedded in the container. These residues would then be transferred to your FGMO-thymol solution and result in probable bee kills.    
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2012, 10:02:48 PM »

Iddee,

Thank you very much for these detailed instructions.  As soon as the weather cooperates - probably spring over here - I'll give it a try.

Maybe the Dr. Rodgriguez in Finski's post was a different Dr. Rodriguez?   grin
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2012, 04:17:53 AM »

.

That fogging is over 10 years old method. If it is good for something, it should be normal procedure all over the world. But it is not. Like in NZ it is forbidden and not even told  how to do it.

2009 one guy in USA tried to do 3 years experiment  with fogging and during two  first years he did not succeed even to fog his hives.

I wonder what are you going to do to your hives, you propel heads!  Have you taken your pills?



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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2012, 04:41:56 AM »

There is an old saying in scientific circles that states "You only find what your are looking for."
Reading the summary, it sounds like they found just what they went looking for.
Just one old mans opinion.

A cynical view ... but sadly one that's all too true. I'd be interested in who funded that research.

LJ
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 06:59:24 AM »

.
Old mans opinion.....same opinion

I would  like to be 15 y like I was  50 y ago, but somehow I am  not.

I was youngest beekeeper in society when I joined to it.

Many think that my 30 y experiences with varroa makes me only stupid.
Amen to that!


llife teaches

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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 07:38:15 AM »

"""Many think that my 30 y experiences with varroa makes me only stupid.""""

NO, Finski's 30 years with varroa makes Finski think all others are stupid.

2sox, Finski's article was done by Patti Elzen and Robert  Cox, not Dr. R. They also used FGMO only, not with thymol. I would imagine they did or didn't do other things also that skewered the results.

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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 09:31:14 AM »

"""Many think that my 30 y experiences with varroa makes me only stupid.""""

NO, Finski's 30 years with varroa makes Finski think all others are stupid.

2sox, Finski's article was done by Patti Elzen and Robert  Cox, not Dr. R. They also used FGMO only, not with thymol. I would imagine they did or didn't do other things also that skewered the results.



sure.

However, USA comes 10 years behind Europe in varroa issues. Same with Canada.

But I have written before that beekeeping companies want to make business with varroa.
They do not want that you pay only 40 cents for one hive treatment. They want that you pay 4 dollars. It is same in UK.

Your Universities want to make same researches in USA which have done 10 y ago in European Varroa Group.  i have written about these things in this forum for years.

Thanks Pal, I make you stupid but you really are. But even if you notice that, you do nothing to help yourself.  Do nothing is you favorit advice. But humbug, that suits well.
Do nothing is the most expencive treatment.

All those researches, what I have linked, are written with your native language.
You admire your "scientific beekeeper", who has done not a single research. He just write about issues which others are done.

.when European Varroa Group selected 1998- 2006  the best methods to treat varroa, i have not found that new methods have appeared.  But forums pull up 20 y old treatments as new innovation. What ever poisons to hives, who cares!


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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2012, 09:59:59 AM »

Thanks for the laugh. I needed a good one this morning.

After treating for years, I learned the best and least expensive method is "do nothing". I have done no treatments for over 5 years and have fewer mites than I ever had when treating. Supporting poor genetics is a waste of time and money, and only prolongs the time before mites are no longer a problem.

The best route to take is find a resistant bee and propagate them. Let the others die. Then you have a sustainable population that doesn't rob you and then die out.
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« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2012, 10:34:16 AM »

Thanks for the laugh. I needed a good one this morning.

After treating for years, I learned the best and least expensive method is "do nothing". I have done no treatments for over 5 years and have fewer mites than I eve

i have studied biology and genetics in University and I have kept bees 50 years.

I have followed your reporst how USA fight against varroa.
I have followed how many countries keep on projects how to breed mite tolerant bees.
You have your Russian bee program, but it is quite silent around it.

In my country there are couple of guys who had breeded mite tolerant bee strains but other beekeepers do not what those buggs. Do nothing strains have some other problems.

Many hobbiests have succeeded in "do nothing treatments" but why professional do not use those methods?

In official US reports varroa is the worst problem in beekeeping. Why?
When I have read MAAREC's advices how to treat varroa, they are not clever at all.

In varroa issue Europe has nothing to learn varroa issue. Yes we know that do nothing method too.

.

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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2012, 10:42:57 AM »

So, what would you suggest to treat for varroa, Finski?  What methods do you use?

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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2012, 11:11:14 AM »

.
In European countries normal procedures are

-formic acid or thymol gasification when honey yield has taken away
- oxalic acid trickling for broodless hives in winter.

These stuffs have many product names.

A leading varroa researcher is Italian professor Antonio Nanetti.
His reports are easy to understand

 





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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2012, 01:03:37 PM »

To answer your question in simple words,

Hobbyists want live bees.

Professionals want dollars.

There lies the difference.

As the years pass, the bees developed by hobbyists will make their way to the professionals.
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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2012, 01:08:59 PM »

Iddee,

I think you've hit on something. I've kept back from treating my bees with anything for the last five years.  I've had some losses but something keeps whispering to me, "A successful parasite doesn't kill it's host.  Eventually things will reach a dynamic equilibrium and the bees will adapt."  In the meantime, there is a good deal of pain for bees and beekeeper.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 02:05:21 PM by 2Sox » Logged

"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism
Finski
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2012, 01:10:05 PM »

.
Amen. Level understood.
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d_fixitman
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« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2012, 01:11:20 PM »

2Sox, pm me your email and I will send pics of a very recent test I performed using fgmo fogging and vaporizing oxalic acid. I have bottom board pics of 24 hour drops after each treatment.
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d_fixitman
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2012, 04:36:25 PM »

I attempted to add pics to the pm reply....
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Finski
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« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2012, 04:56:12 PM »

2Sox, pm me your email and I will send pics of a very recent test I performed using fgmo fogging and vaporizing oxalic acid. I have bottom board pics of 24 hour drops after each treatment.

mites drop 4 weeks after oxalic acid fogging. 24 h does not mean much.
2 week has biggest drop.
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