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Author Topic: A mandate?  (Read 3047 times)
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« on: November 10, 2012, 07:13:11 AM »

Listening to Obama and the Democrats along with willing participants in the media they keep saying Obama has a "mandate" to continue with his policies.
50 1/2 percent of the popular vote is hardly a mandate in any playbook. If there would have been a mandate it also would have given Dems the control of both houses of Congress. Seems the people were not yet willing to give the Dems the purse strings back. Perhaps the people would rather see gridlock slowing the pace of confiscation? We saw what happened when we had two years of Democrat control of all three branches. Whish has led up to the 100 percent of GDP in government spending.
I can see it now that Obama may try to change the tax policies via executive order. Unconstitutional no matter how you twist things.But the media will try to portaray that wiping your rear with the Constitution is okay if it's for your own good.
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 09:09:09 AM »

Going to be interesting to see what he will do with the mess he inherited, hope thats all it is..dl
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 09:50:04 AM »

At least he will have someone new he can blame part of what he has inherited on, the person that has had the job the last four years.




Joe
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 11:29:39 AM »

been thinking about this stuff.  we can't stop most of what he wants to do.  seems to me there's not much point in fighting around the margins.  most of the really damaging stuff he wants, he'll get one way or another.

give it to him.

don't fight one thing that he wants.  at the end of 4 years, there will be no ad that can be run blaming republicans for anything.
  in the mean time, go ahead with the investigations into the crap that has happened, like Benghazi.
  looks like voter fraud will be added to those investigations.  not sure how you get 100% of the vote anywhere, for anyone....much less 140% of the electorate voting.  maybe these are local issues, but they need to be looked into especially since they happened primarily in swing states. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 12:57:25 PM »

I like the idea of 50 and 1/2 percent of the voting population supporting his new tax ideas and leaving the rest of us alone with any changes.  2 tax brackets.   
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 02:36:26 PM »

I heard the same rhetoric from Pelosi when the Democrats took the house and before that from Newt Gingrich when the Republicans took it over.  It is definitely not a sign of sanity to call 1/2 percent majority a mandate yet both parties seem to think it is a mandate and they ignore that ALMOST the majority of people are terrified of their mandate...
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 04:40:28 PM »

Obama = 232  Romney = 206 

Obama won by over 12%.  That's getting close to a mandate.

Remember dear beeks, we live in Republic, not a Democracy  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 07:10:24 PM »

>Obama won by over 12%.  That's getting close to a mandate.

As far as becoming president that is a valid number since the Electoral College elects the president.  But as far as a "mandate" from the people, he did NOT win by 12% of the popular vote.  49% of the people did not want him as president.  Hardly a mandate.
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 05:40:29 PM »

And they, or should I say we since we 'all' have to live w/ the results (Living under Bush's Rule wasn't fun for half the Country, remember?) and 'we' wanted and elected Obama twice despite a 57% eligible voter turn out which 'should have' preferred the Republicans.  

So you math wizards, what percentage actually decided the election?  I'm coming up w/ a big 27-or 28%, which means something like 76-78% of the total electorate didn't want Obama as Pres, and even less wanted Romney.   We must pay attention to all citizens, not just those willing to go to the polls.

Like it or not, divided or not, we really are all in this together.

Perhaps while sleeping during the campaign some have awoken to the tune of "the times they are (finally) a-changin"  (sorry, couldn't help myself after holding my tongue so long  Wink) and have hopefully realized that ticking off half the Country doesn't serve the interests of the elite any longer.

Like Mike Tyson getting his butt whipped the first time, their cover/scam on the American people has been exposed (at least to those with their eyes open and changing the channels...often).

This election says much more than the first time around.  To deny its meaning simply allows for the continuation of denial that convinced the Republicans they were going to win in a landslide (because Gingrich said so  rolleyes) and going down that road w/out some 'honest' soul searching will finally result in their own downfall.

Now, if they could only take the Dems down along with them 'we the people' may be able to do some real damage repair.

Its always been about we the people, less than half of whom don't even bother to vote and the majority that do vote on BOTH sides are pretty much misinformed and/or misled, not the knucklehead politicians wanting our $ and telling us whatever we want to hear in order to get it.  Hopefully this fact is finally beginning to sink in w/ a majority, time can only tell.

And despite all the denial rhetoric;  Its 'always' been about class, the 'have it alls' and the rest of us.  Its been this way for thousands of years and again...., to deny this reality subjects us all to continued slavery.

There is a major push taking place right now that I urge all citizens to participate in; Regularly contacting your Congressmen/women and demanding they relinquish the authority/benefits they've 'self-appropriated' for themselves, such as pay raises, pensions, health care and special rules/privileges that only apply to them, whether serving or retired.  

Congress should operate under the same laws they make for the rest of us and 'we the people' should at a minimum, be asking (no, demanding) why they are not.   To do any less IMO is un-American.  Simply voting in Presidential Elections should not be the 'minimum' expected from an informed 'democratic' citizenry.  Active participation MUST be in order to keep it that way.

Sorry to be so long but its been awhile (you've all been awfully and wonderfully entertaining during the campaign, thanks grin  until next time.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:54:12 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2012, 10:48:51 AM »

Perhaps while sleeping during the campaign some have awoken to the tune of "the times they are (finally) a-changin"  (sorry, couldn't help myself after holding my tongue so long  Wink) and have hopefully realized that ticking off half the Country doesn't serve the interests of the elite any longer.

...

This election says much more than the first time around.  To deny its meaning simply allows for the continuation of denial that convinced the Republicans they were going to win in a landslide (because Gingrich said so  rolleyes) and going down that road w/out some 'honest' soul searching will finally result in their own downfall.
Well said!
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2012, 11:12:07 AM »

on a federal level it no longer matters the people living off the system have now grown to over 51%. This was the end of America as we know it, the takers are now in control.

Say what you want about Romney the most accurate statement he made for the entire campaign was when he stated there are 47% out there that he cant change or something along those lines. Everyone was shocked he got caught saying it but inside all agreed 100% with what he said.

Over 52% of Americans are on some type of government assistance, this cannot go on forever. There will be riots in America when the government gravy train spicket is finally turned off.

I hope i am still here to see it

utterly disgusted with America,

Keith
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luvin honey
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2012, 11:15:16 AM »

So, Keith, I'm sure you won't become one of the "takers" and cash your SS checks or use Medicare when you retire. And I bet you didn't cash the checks that Bush mailed out back in the day.
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2012, 11:30:23 AM »

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So, Keith, I'm sure you won't become one of the "takers" and cash your SS checks or use Medicare when you retire. And I bet you didn't cash the checks that Bush mailed out back in the day.

at the point where one begins to take out of SSI more than has been put in, it is welfare.  not much we can do about it. that program is what it is.  same with medicare.  there isn't even a choice in paying or taking.  because the tree huggers of the 70's decided not to procreate, there are not enough people coming along to support the programs.  it will be interesting to see what happens when they run out of money. 

i thought that the money bush mailed out was not going to do much and i was right.  for some of us, it was getting our own money back, for others it was welfare.  that said, if money is going to spew out of the federal government, better it go to people that to vague and non-functioning "stimulus" programs.

 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2012, 12:50:20 PM »

If some feel victimized by the 47% that earn to little to contribute, PERHAPS you may want to start convincing all the so-called job creators to begin paying their slaves more so everyone can then earn enough to pay into the system we love to hate (well some of you really do seem to hate this Country and along w/ a good many who live here beside you) but are unwilling to do anything about it except gripe on beekeeping forums.

PERHAPS we should treat 'all' income the same.  Now there's a novel idea.  It is the same after all, whether its 'earned wages from labor' (previously not taxed) or 'unearned' by profits, dividends or inheritance (where the largest share of wealth comes from). 

Why should "unearned" income be treated any different than income produced by sweat? 

Please; rational (or funny) answers only  laugh 

Most Americans don't know (and its no accident) that our original income tax "excluded" labor produced income (our leaders back then felt it would be like forcing us to pay to breathe or exist, IT IS, IT IS!) and only included "unearned" income as taxable.  Cool, heh? 

Of course the well-off don't want to hear that and they don't want us to either. 

What we have now has nearly completed the reversal of fortunes from 'we the people' to the few with much help from the wannabees.  Little changes over the centuries  Sad but 'something' is in the air...........
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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2012, 01:06:50 PM »

I really love the new election ambiance!  Billy clubs and intimidation are fine if you are the right people.  59 precincts in Cleveland cast not one vote for Romney, BUT a 99% turnout??  Stalin couldn't do that well.  But you folks in Floriday who can vote 108% of the registered voters are truely==well  Progressive!  Yeah it is a fine mandate for Bathhouse Barry. 
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« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2012, 01:16:47 PM »

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If some feel victimized by the 47% that earn to little to contribute, PERHAPS you may want to start convincing all the so-called job creators to begin paying their slaves more so everyone can then earn enough to pay into the system we love to hate

or people could stop feeling like they are victims?
your plan would work because we all know there is no connection between labor costs and costs of goods, right.  you can raise the cost of labor and everyone ends up in a better place.....of course, you can look at goods over the years...like cars, and see how that really works.  

Quote
PERHAPS we should treat 'all' income the same.  Now there's a novel idea.  It is the same after all, whether its 'earned wages from labor' (previously not taxed) or 'unearned' by profits, dividends or inheritance (where the largest share of wealth comes from
)

i actually think this is a good idea.  i would support a flat tax that taxed all sources of income including welfare, SSI, etc.  you get a check, you pay a tax.

Quote
Of course the well-off don't want to hear that and they don't want us to either. 

i'm not sure in who's world 200-250 thousand is well off.  for the individual , it's comfortable.  for the business, it's marginal.  this admin is not talking about taxing the wealthy....well, that is what they are talking about, but that's not the plan.  they are excellent, as T Beek demonstrates, at stirring up those who are jealous of what others have.  it's far easier for many to shake a fist at those who have succeeded than to succeed themselves....or, as most of us do, be happy where we are.  it's always someone else's fault.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2012, 01:27:29 PM »

I really love the new election ambiance!  Billy clubs and intimidation are fine if you are the right people.  59 precincts in Cleveland cast not one vote for Romney, BUT a 99% turnout??  Stalin couldn't do that well.  But you folks in Floriday who can vote 108% of the registered voters are truely==well  Progressive!  Yeah it is a fine mandate for Bathhouse Barry.  

Have you been to Cleveland?  

The best thing about Florida this year is that it didn't matter.

Yeah as usual kathyp fare; she always reminds me of the old "pot calling the kettle black" saying and fails time after time, to look into her own mirror (or her heroes).  I know its hard but its not like she doesn't know how  grin

Like the rest of us she's free to make her own choices I suppose.

Heard today that over 100,000 people signed petitions in 17 States to separate from the US.  Now THAT will save us some money if they actually follow through.  I'll even send a check to support that effort.  

I wonder where they'll go.  NOT!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 03:30:07 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2012, 01:47:21 PM »

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Yeah as usual kathyp fare; she always reminds me of the old "pot calling the kettle black" saying and fails time after time, to look into her own mirror (or her heroes).  I know its hard but its not like she doesn't know how

no clue what you are talking about.  you seem very unhappy with your lot in life.  that's to bad, but that's on you, not on some mythical rich person who took what should have been yours.

when i asked what was attractive about the left, i might have asked to broad a questions as  thinking about specifics is a chore for some.  when looking at all the special interest groups to whom the left panders, i'm looking for examples of successful programs that have elevated those special interest groups.  not finding any. 

so, while you, T Beek and luvin, are pushing the leftist agenda, i'm wondering what specific programs are so successful that you want us all to embrace them?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2012, 02:02:19 PM »

T Beek, you have my vote if you want to run for office!  applause applause applause
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« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2012, 02:12:06 PM »

Specifically, 2 "leftist agenda" items that have helped my life and those I love: FMLA and be able to (soon) get health insurance regardless of preexisting conditions.

Historically, I applaud the "leftist agenda" of promoting voting and other rights for women and minorities. I appreciate protection of the environment (although it can go too far at times) through nat'l parks and other protections, govt regulation where corporate greed would otherwise create catastrophe (although the regulation can also go too far at times, or be nonsensical--still, fix it rather than eliminate it), a reluctance to go to war unless protecting the motherland, and far more.
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« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2012, 03:25:49 PM »

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Yeah as usual kathyp fare; she always reminds me of the old "pot calling the kettle black" saying and fails time after time, to look into her own mirror (or her heroes).  I know its hard but its not like she doesn't know how

no clue what you are talking about.  you seem very unhappy with your lot in life.  that's to bad, but that's on you, not on some mythical rich person who took what should have been yours.

when i asked what was attractive about the left, i might have asked to broad a questions as  thinking about specifics is a chore for some.  when looking at all the special interest groups to whom the left panders, i'm looking for examples of successful programs that have elevated those special interest groups.  not finding any. 

so, while you, T Beek and luvin, are pushing the leftist agenda, i'm wondering what specific programs are so successful that you want us all to embrace them?

Have to agree w/ your first words above; you 'have no clue what I am talking about" which was established many posts ago. 

Winter is back and so am I  grin
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« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2012, 03:27:16 PM »

T Beek, you have my vote if you want to run for office!  applause applause applause

Too late for me I'm afraid.  I know to many secrets.
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« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2012, 08:01:41 PM »

Well I guess the petitioners understand the Constitution was to keep the federal government from becoming all too powerful and written to limit the powers of the Fed. It is no longer governing with the consent of the governed.
I can see a presence of tyrannical government. Seceession may be the best way to tear apart the behemoth.
Not sure how the states seceding will save money for the Fed. I'm sure their citizens are not going to continue funneling money to Washington if they secede.Washington is a money grabber that does not return all it takes. The states do not "win"  because of Washington taxing and redistributing wealth.
Unless you think it's a good idea for Pennsylvanians to pay for Californias fiscal mess they created on their own.
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« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2012, 09:05:19 PM »

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Historically, I applaud the "leftist agenda" of promoting voting and other rights for women and minorities.

you probably want to take a look at history.  voting rights for minorities, specifically blacks, was introduced and promoted by republicans.  Ike was the first president to press for civil rights, but the democrats (kennedy among them) voted it down.  the only reason kennedy finally came around was that he barely won his first election and knew he needed the black vote for his second.  johnson followed up on that with measures of his "great society" specifically aimed at poor minority to get the vote.  thus was born the myth of democrats caring about minorities as democrats enslaved minorities in generational welfare for votes.
do you know also that the first black elected congressmen were republicans?

womens rights:  do you know that republicans were the first to seat women as representatives to the convention?  they were the first to have a woman speaker. 
the democrats repeatedly defeated the susan b anthony amendment and it was not passed until the republicans regained control.   

when a republican points these things out, the leftist will immediately cry that the republican party has changed!!  not so.  we still support equal rights, not special rights.  that's why it is the left the panders to interest groups....and in spite of the fact that they fail these same groups over and over, it seems to work. 

i understand the desire to buy health insurance with a pre-existing condition, but isn't that like buying fire insurance after house burns down?  i mean, why bother getting insurance until you need it, right?  how about the plan that has been out there for many years, that there be a high risk insurance pool available to people who otherwise might not be insurable?  no....that would make to much sense.  far better to turn the entire health care system upside down and make it prohibitively expensive for everyone.  unintended consequence?  not at all.
obama care is designed to destroy private insurance so that single payer is the option left.  it's working well already and not even fully implemented. 

family leave, not a big thing.  i don't think the feds should be involved in that kind of stuff, but if that's one of your reasons for loving the left, so be it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2012, 09:09:06 PM »

guess i'd also ask:  how many years must we wait for even a little improvement?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/budget-deficit-rises-120-billion-october-190237736--business.html

i mean....his are the policies that were supposed to restore us....he did promise.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2012, 05:43:04 AM »

Good Golly Ms Molly;  Ike couldn't get elected today, he'd be called a liberal, Reagan too for that matter.  Todays Republicans don't look anything like their predessors and have effectively smeared the good things done in the passed.

Ken;  the decision (freely made) to secede by these 'poor losers' has nothing to do w/ the Constitution as you likely already know in your heart.  

They're just mad because their guy didn't win and instead of running for office themselves, supporting a candidate or even contacting their elected or just 'doing' something (other than running their mouths) to create changes, they're going to........WHAT?  Where are these knuckleheads going to go?  Who will take them in?  As Ex-pats who would want them?  

Do you really think there is even ONE State that would select this route, much less 17 or 20.  We're talking about a handful of 'losers' from less than half the States.  

What ever happened to the saying;  "America, love it or leave it."   huh

I'd have no trouble sending the "haters" someplace else, no one is forcing them to stay (after all, all they ever do is complain and whine, complain and whine anyway).  Good riddance grin

It seems obvious that folks suffering w/ "short term memory" who are looking for 'even a little improvement' simply need to OPEN THEIR EYES and go back to 2008, that alone should serve as a paradigm shift back to reality.

The 40% loss in stock value I took under GW has nearly been recovered since O took office.  I call 'that' MORE than a 'little' improvement.   Home values (and sales) are going up too.  You really must change the channel more often.

Maybe the real problem is that you're "waiting" for improvement or 'complaining' about the amount you've experienced and spend all your time doing nothing (except running that mouth) to make it happen, heh?  

Does that ring true for some of you?  C'mon, be honest.  ALL of us can and should do more, contribute more to this Country we claim to love.  Where's the Love?

We can't just continue to blame O for all the bad choices 'we' (or his predesessors) made, can we?  

You can?  Well, then there's no hope for you.  Get in a car, on a boat or plane and get as far away from here as you can....Good luck to you, America doesn't need you either.

There's a channel on my TV, it s/b called the "Blame it all on Obama" channel, but its not.  It is what they do all day long.  

Don't believe me, turn on FOX TV, they're doing it all the time.  I mean they're all getting wildly rich off telling us how bad everything is or going to be w/ O in office another 4 years.

Did you all hear about the moron who told all his friends and neighbors he'd kill himself, his wife and kids if Obama won?  Turns out he did, Rush L came close to calling him a hero.  What's that about?  

Wa-waaa-waaa-waaaaaaaaaaa

Since medical science hasn't cured all types of blindness yet we should not hope for too much too soon  grin.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 06:03:55 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2012, 07:16:47 AM »

I honestly believe the people are getting fed up with the federal monster consuming an ever larger part of our productivity.The endless spending of other peoples money is starting to hit home to a larger part of the population.
  The past four years have shined a bright light for many on just how bad things are about to get for the productive members of society.When a government becomes tyrannical,it will need to be stripped of it's powers in order for the people to reign it in.
 When the economy is in the dumps and there is a lack of confidence to rebuild and invest in the private sector,the answer is not to tax the rich.That will do much to spur investment I'm sure.
 The "rich" could choose to pull all of their money out of the markets to avoid the tax on earnings of the wealthiest individuals.What if the "rich" finally have enough and just leave with their money for a friendlier environment? It can happen.
And they could just keep the home in America for a vacation home.
 
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2012, 07:21:41 AM »

And T
have you ever watched Chris Matthews and Rachael Maddow?  They are as big of talking heads as you mention. Matthews is a poster child for this administrations agenda.He is an embarrassment to journalism.
Heck he even tried to claim it unconstitutional that Romney questioned Obama the way he did. What an idiot.
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2012, 07:23:53 AM »

And it is not being a sore loser by refusing to compromise your values and principles because the libs won this round. I for one will not roll over and quit because of it.And I'm sure others will not either.
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2012, 09:48:19 AM »

Take a good look at California. A one time economic force has been reduced to total ruin. The leftist Democrats who have had total control for decades. Leftist have spent all of our money and yes, chased business out of the state. We pay high taxes on everything. Governor Moonbeam has grabbed us by the throat and shoved his hands deeper into our pockets. One month ago I received a letter from the state, I had to fork over another $150.00 per year because of where I live. This on top of the very heavy property tax I already pay. The letter also came with the threat, "if you don't pay in 30 days, a lien will be place on your home". Now moonbeam has us paying for a train to nowhere. Did anyone notice how Moonbeam won his election? At the last minute he got an idiot to scream racism. Oh good old Saul.

So yes, take a good look at California. The leftist are coming and they want you freedom and your money. Oh its NOT the wealthy Obama is after. Just keep sitting there.
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2012, 10:35:55 AM »

If you knew anything about me you'd know that I 'watch' them all.  Its the only way to get a broad viewpoint. 

I like MSNBC as much as FOX, very little indeed, both are propaganda machines for the fortunate few.
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2012, 11:02:17 AM »

I agree with T Beek, I don’t enjoy propaganda “news” be it FOX or MSNBC.  Propaganda "news" is brainwashing too many.

All this talk of secession is really childish.  Hey, nobody gets their way 100% of the time.  Did we hear all this talk about secession when George Bush barely won his elections?  Do you think the other half of the country that didn’t vote for Bush was happy about the direction the country was going?  We’ve been running deficits for what seems like forever and there is always some ‘doomsday’ crisis at the doorstep to worry about, the only difference NOW is 47% the electorate has been brainwashed into thinking that it’s their way or the highway? 
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2012, 11:06:14 AM »

Well I guess the petitioners understand the Constitution was to keep the federal government from becoming all too powerful and written to limit the powers of the Fed. It is no longer governing with the consent of the governed.
I can see a presence of tyrannical government. Seceession may be the best way to tear apart the behemoth.
Not sure how the states seceding will save money for the Fed. I'm sure their citizens are not going to continue funneling money to Washington if they secede.Washington is a money grabber that does not return all it takes. The states do not "win"  because of Washington taxing and redistributing wealth.
Unless you think it's a good idea for Pennsylvanians to pay for Californias fiscal mess they created on their own.
That's the thing about a democratic vote, though. A whole lot of people will not get what they wanted. I sat through 8 years of feeling like my country was being destroyed when Bush was in office, but I also realized that was the bad part of a democracy, and I would have a chance next time.

As for CA, how much damage happened by Schwarzenegger was in office?
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2012, 11:10:48 AM »

The letter also came with the threat, "if you don't pay in 30 days, a lien will be place on your home". Now moonbeam has us paying for a train to nowhere.

In Michigan, if you don't pay your property taxes for 3 years, the State takes your property back  Wink

I agree with you that CA is a mess.  What I can't figure out is why people still live there huh  You can buy a mansion in Detroit for $35K,  Move to the Winter Water Wonderland, already.  We're waiting  Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2012, 11:54:43 AM »

I live in the mountains and have my beautiful winter wonderland. Lots of room for my bees! Worked all my life to retire here. As most retirees, I have a limited income. The taxes I'm facing are a real problem. From what I understand there are many many new taxes coming our way, hidden in the healthcare law. We will see. My concern is what happened in Ca. will happen to everyone. Careful what you wish for.

Our founding fathers said, " you can have a republic, if you can keep it!".
A people without virtue or moral will not keep freedom.
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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2012, 01:28:39 PM »

It is our duty as freedom loving citizens (so we say  rolleyes) to stay informed, not led like sheep.  Not very many people take that duty very serious which has brought us to where we are.

WE THE PEOPLE did this to ourselves but would rather blame everyone but, least of all ourselves.  Many of you should be ashamed of yourselves for letting things get so bad while sitting by blaming some 'other' entity than the deserving.  so...blah, blah, blah.  

"The more things change the more they stay the same."  

The vast majority of this Country has no idea and worse, very little interest in what is really going on, spending their time instead listening to some blowhard who claims to know, then running around parroting what they were told.  

HINT; you won't find folks who KNOW what's going on and are willing to share that info on any TV Channel in America.  So stop looking for answers there.

Whether what we find out in searching makes us uncomfortable or worse, we must always seek the truth and that can only be done by using all of our senses and all of our resources, of which their are many.  

Responsible Citizenry is hard work and we've left it to the politicians for too long.

Instead of Dems blaming Reps and Reps blaming Dems (they really are the same party you know) which gets us no where and effectively does their bidding for them 'we' must collectively hold 'all' their feet to the fire or kick them to the curb.  

Our divisions only serve the slave masters.  Fire the slave masters
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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2012, 04:18:53 PM »

Specifically, 2 "leftist agenda" items that have helped my life and those I love: FMLA and be able to (soon) get health insurance regardless of preexisting conditions.

Historically, I applaud the "leftist agenda" of promoting voting and other rights for women and minorities.Was it not the  Republicans that freed the slaves and also gave them the right to vote? And I believe they were also the driving force behind the civil rights movement. I appreciate protection of the environment (although it can go too far at times) through nat'l parks and other protections, Also correct me if I am wrong but I believe the devil AKA George Bush Jr put more acreage into the national park system than any other president in historygovt regulation where corporate greed would otherwise create catastrophe (although the regulation can also go too far at times, or be nonsensical--still, fix it rather than eliminate it), a reluctance to go to war unless protecting the motherland, and far more. OK now lets think back to Vietnam Johnson was with what party?
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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2012, 04:24:32 PM »

Specifically, 2 "leftist agenda" items that have helped my life and those I love: FMLA and be able to (soon) get health insurance regardless of preexisting conditions.

Historically, I applaud the "leftist agenda" of promoting voting and other rights for women and minorities.Was it not the  Republicans that freed the slaves and also gave them the right to vote? And I believe they were also the driving force behind the civil rights movement. I appreciate protection of the environment (although it can go too far at times) through nat'l parks and other protections, Also correct me if I am wrong but I believe the devil AKA George Bush Jr put more acreage into the national park system than any other president in historygovt regulation where corporate greed would otherwise create catastrophe (although the regulation can also go too far at times, or be nonsensical--still, fix it rather than eliminate it), a reluctance to go to war unless protecting the motherland, and far more. OK now lets think back to Vietnam Johnson was with what party?
Keith--All great achievements! (except the last Smiley) The Republican party of yesteryear is one I can respect. I cannot stand where they are now.
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« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2012, 04:47:58 PM »

Johnson LBJ, a Democrat, inherited Vietnam, Nixon, a Republican killed 20,000 more Americans after promising to get us out w/ honor  rolleyes  Other than the deaths of millions there was no honor in Vietnam.

Both Truman (D) and Ike (R) ignored pleas from the North Vietnamese people seeking "democracy" as did Kennedy (D) (but I believe Kennedy figured out the real deal before his murder and would not have expanded) which forced the Vietnamese to turn to the Russians and Chinese for assistance....and we were off and running w/ the "domino theory."

Political parties make little diference in times of war.  Did Iraq show you nothing???

Its all about the money.
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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2012, 05:29:49 PM »

Quote
I cannot stand where they are now.

they are want they were.  the party of equal opportunity and personal responsibility.  it is the population that has changed even as the republican party has become more liberal than it once was. 

we now have a population that does not want equality of opportunity, they want equality of outcome .  they do not want responsibility, they want things done for, and given to, them.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2012, 05:47:23 PM »

To Luvin Honey.  When Gov. Ahhnold was elected he gave us hope. Said he would take on the unions and get us out of this mess. As soon as the gov. put forward proposals to get us out of the red, the unions ( in ca. unions control the leftist in Sacramento ) publicly brutalized him with the typical Alinsky attacks. The unions where relentless. Turns out the gov. is a moderate coward and ran for cover. He did nothing for ca. while in office. So, Ca. was a mess before Schwartzenegger and of coarse even much worse today. It is no secret the leftist democrats have controlled ca. for decades.
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2012, 06:02:57 PM »

The Democrat party of today is closer to Socialists than the Democrat party of years past. Obama is no JFK.Obama will not identify or confront the enemey on a full frontal assault.
And Blue,wasn't Detroit the midwests' example of unbridled liberalism at it's best? Seems they have reaped what they sowed.
Already the Dems are talking of raising more than the proposed taxes on the rich so they can do more targeted stimulus spending.They learn nothing from previous failures and further convince me they have no concept of fiscal responsibility. To a modern day Dem a tax dollar raised is two to be spent.
Other peoples money is running out.
They refuse to understand that having a fully employed population will bring more tax dollars in to pay deficits than the ponzy schemes they contrive to redistribute dollars earned by the workers and risk takers in this country.
The next minority in this country, if not already,will be the working class.
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2012, 06:34:10 PM »

Frederick Douglass:
What shall be done with the four million slaves if they are emancipated? ... Primarily, it is a question less for man than for God -- less for human intellect than for the laws of nature to solve. It assumes that nature has erred; that the law of liberty is a mistake; that freedom, though a natural want of the human soul, can only be enjoyed at the expense of human welfare, and that men are better off in slavery than they would or could be in freedom; that slavery is the natural order of human relations, and that liberty is an experiment. What shall be done with them? Our answer is, do nothing with them; mind your business, and let them mind theirs. Your doing with them is their greatest misfortune. They have been undone by your doings, and all they now ask, and really have need of at your hands, is just to let them alone. They suffer by every interference, and succeed best by being let alone.

i like this quote.  the proposition was that if you freed the slaves they would starve because they didn't know how to take care of themselves.  it was one of the pro-slavery arguments and a concern of some anti-slavery people also. 
we have taught a segment of the society, by our actions and interference, that failure is bad.  failure must be avoided and it's now the governments job to mitigate failure. 

two things come from that.  on the small scale, you end up with people who are incapable of picking themselves up when something goes wrong.  on the large scale, you end up with a society that does not know how to succeed.  to succeed, you must learn to fail.  i don't know any successful people who don't have a string of failures in their past. 

we have also created a new class of slaves.  dependent people are not free. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2012, 06:46:30 PM »

> we have also created a new class of slaves.  dependent people are not free.  Cry

But they vote for the one who promises the most.  Sad

 LBJ's Great Society.  The Hispanics have fallen in line also.
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2012, 07:37:25 PM »

took me a while to figure out the Hispanic and Jewish vote.  they are more closely aligned with conservatives in almost all that they believe.  why do they vote for dems?  it is the religious history component that does it.  both Catholicism and Judaism are not only religions but have been governments.  because the church, and by extension the government, is responsible for the care of the people, the social welfare state appeals to them instinctively. 

the part i still don't understand, and do not forgive, is that they will put supposedly strong moral beliefs aside for the social welfare state.  people who would do that do not have moral beliefs worth much.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2012, 07:53:45 PM »

Never mind...
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