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Author Topic: Vote!  (Read 6171 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2012, 01:20:01 PM »

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I care about changing healthcare, protecting the environment, having a fairer tax system, and having a safety net, especially while the economy recovers.

so the health  care plan you got is costing jobs and causing the cost of insurance to go up (hey, wasn't there some promise about that?), the protection of the environment is costing jobs, revenue, and causing inflation...and starvation,  we don't have a fairer tax system and it's about to get more unfair, and we have a safety net that is about to go broke.

still don't have an answer to that questions, but i think the real answer is that you believe you are getting something that you are not.  the illusion has become your reality.

Quote
Riiighhhtttt. The Bush tax cuts and corporate bailouts were what? Not welfare? Puhlease. Since when is taxation called theft? It'd be nice to at least have an honest and intelligent conversation.

the reason obama extended the bush tax cuts is that the majority goes to the middle class. if you remember, bush took office in a recession and then 9/11 happened.  those tax cuts contributed to record growth in the economy, low unemployment, record revenue.  if you also remember, congress spends money.  the economy didn't go south under bush until the dems won congress and started spending like....democrats.    as for corporate bailouts...yes, it would be nice to have an honest conversation.

theft: A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person's consent.

it is true that taxation is not criminal but only because those taking, make the laws.  it is also true that there are some things we do want the government to do.  those things are in the Constitution.  anything else that you want should be done through your state and if you want to pay for it, good for you.

because the government has no source of income, it must take from those who produce to redistribute it to those who do not.  that's theft anywhere but in in the government. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2012, 01:29:06 PM »

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-10/foodstamps-surge-most-one-year-new-all-time-record-delayed-release

this is one of the real reasons the election went as it did and why this will continue.  we say that people vote their pocketbooks, and they do.  especially when that pocketbook is full of other peoples money.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2012, 01:54:54 PM »

I happen to believe our economy is in the crapper because:
1. Stupid wars we didn't have the money for, that are getting nothing of value done, and weren't paid for through increased taxation or revenue.
2. Unregulated housing market that collapsed, taking a lot of people down with it.

It would be interesting to KNOW how many welfare recipients even vote. It's so easy to paint Democrats as people seeking handouts. I've never gotten a free thing in my life, except from my parents, and have worked every year of my life since I was 14 years old. This would describe all the Democrats I know.

I know it's an easy talking point for you to claim welfare as the only reason Ds vote, but it's not accurate and doesn't help either side to understand the other's point of view any better.
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sterling
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2012, 01:57:59 PM »

A good number of the foodstamp recipients were from Mexico as a result of the ads on Mexican radio in Spanish telling the Mexicans how to get to the US and how to get foodstamps and other benefits payed for with the money taken from Americans who work.
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sterling
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2012, 02:21:52 PM »

I happen to believe our economy is in the crapper because:
1. Stupid wars we didn't have the money for, that are getting nothing of value done, and weren't paid for through increased taxation or revenue.
2. Unregulated housing market that collapsed, taking a lot of people down with it.

It would be interesting to KNOW how many welfare recipients even vote. It's so easy to paint Democrats as people seeking handouts. I've never gotten a free thing in my life, except from my parents, and have worked every year of my life since I was 14 years old. This would describe all the Democrats I know.

I know it's an easy talking point for you to claim welfare as the only reason Ds vote, but it's not accurate and doesn't help either side to understand the other's point of view any better.
[/quote
Are you aware of who was behind the housing market crash? And what they were trying to accomplish?
People on welfare voting? What percentage of es panics voted for Romney? And it's being talked about everwhere that they voted. If you do not believe they are being taken care of by the Govt. for a short course go to the emergency room on any given day and watch. Or maybe stand in line at a grocery store for awhile and see how they pay for their foodstuff.
As for the wars it's probably alot more complicated then you are willing to accept.
I have a question for you. If the country goes deeper into the crapper the next couple years what then are we going to use for an excuse? The wars are nearly over, the housing crash was four or five years ago and we have spent billions helping poor people.
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iddee
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2012, 02:37:38 PM »

OK, so you found a few Dems that aren't on welfare. Now turn around and see how many welfare recipients you can find that voted republican. Then you might see the picture.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2012, 02:46:48 PM »

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1. Stupid wars we didn't have the money for, that are getting nothing of value done, and weren't paid for through increased taxation or revenue.
2. Unregulated housing market that collapsed, taking a lot of people down with it.

i'll go part way with you on one.  poorly executed wars that should have been done long ago.  no national interest in nation building in hell holes like afghanistan.

on 2. you are completely wrong.  it was government interference that caused the problem in the first place.  certainly not a lack of regulation.  but then, we have talked about that before and i can't help it if you don't do your own research...especially when the info if given to you.

i will amend my portrayal of dems to include those who are of the opinion that welfare and more government are  good things, and that we all should pay for it....endlessly....  you seem to fall into the second category.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2012, 02:58:47 PM »

OK, so you found a few Dems that aren't on welfare. Now turn around and see how many welfare recipients you can find that voted republican. Then you might see the picture.
Many of the Rs I know are farmers getting subsidies. That's welfare. I know no Ds getting welfare.
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The pedigree of honey
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luvin honey
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2012, 03:01:56 PM »

i will amend my portrayal of dems to include those who are of the opinion that welfare and more government are  good things, and that we all should pay for it....endlessly....  you seem to fall into the second category.
Rs and Ds both want govt, just in different places and for different reasons.

I think a tiny bit of welfare is a good thing. Most of it needs reform. Much of it is necessary with the economy in the tank right now, unless you're willing for people to freeze and starve. I think it's ironic to criticize support for the unemployed when 99% of people would prefer to work but cannot find a job.

I would like the govt to shrink--defense, social issues such as abortion and marriage, most corporate subsidies.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 06:42:07 PM by luvin honey » Logged

The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2012, 03:32:42 PM »

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Many of the Rs I know are farmers getting subsidies. That's welfare.

you are right.  it is. i don't support it.

Quote
I think a tiny bit of welfare is a good thing. Most of it needs reform. Much of it is necessary with the economy in the tank right now, unless you're willing for people to freeze and starve. I think it's ironic to criticize support for the unemployed when 99% of people would prefer to work but cannot find a job.

i agree that people should not starve in the streets, but welfare should be done by the states and charity.  not the federal government. 
why is the economy in the tank?  even if you want to blame bush for starting it, it's worse now and after 4 years of obama i don't see it getting any better.  we have history to show us the kinds of things that work and don't work.  do you think that continuing to do the things that have been proved not to work, is a good plan?

Quote
I would like the govt to shrink--defense, social issues such as abortion and marriage, most corporate subsidies.

of those things, the only thing the federal government is constitutionally tasked with, is to provide for the common defense.  everything else is outside what they should be doing, although the states may do these things if they wish.  if the government were doing that one thing it's tasked with, and not all the other crap, there would be no problem with paying for defense.  as programs go, the cost of defense is not that big.  it runs, depending on who you ask, 13 to 16% of the budget ( not that we have one) even now when we are deployed.  only part of that is actual military spending.  there's tons of junk that comes under the defense budget.

speaking of budgets...do we really know what we spend?  we have not had a budget for 3 years now.  not sure how you run anything if you don't have a budget.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2012, 06:48:02 PM »

I don't mean eliminate defense--I mean cut it way back. Get out of ridiculous wars. Stop policing other nations so much. Cut down on the fancy schmancy programs that sometimes don't even end up producing results. We have the great fortune of having 2 non-warring neighbors and large oceans surrounding us. Yes, we're in the nuclear age, but we don't need anywhere near the defense we have.

As for the budget, a couple days ago I was looking up budgets. It was amazingly difficult to find any 2 pie charts that agreed. Those I looked at had defense spending anywhere from 18-50%. Not sure where the truth lies, but getting out of Afghan. and ramping down on Iraq has got to help.

Kathyp, we might agree on more than we think Wink I like the idea of some state sovreignty, but it seems impractical. For example, if the states took on disaster relief, how exactly does the state devastated by the hurricane take care of itself? If we left welfare to the states, how do impoverished states keep their citizens clothed and fed? If we leave regulation to the states, how does interstate commerce work? And what about national natural resources? What if the western states decided to clear-cut the national forests, something many of us would consider national treasures? Same with education. Should American children have basically similar educations, regardless of whether they grow up in WI or GA?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 07:44:49 PM by luvin honey » Logged

The pedigree of honey
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Is aristocracy.
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kathyp
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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2012, 07:22:50 PM »

Quote
As for the budget, a couple days ago I was looking up budgets. It was amazingly difficult to find any 2 pie charts that agreed. Those I looked at had defense spending anywhere from 18-50%. Not sure where the truth lies, but getting out of Afghan. and ramping down on Iraq has got to help.

we are out of iraq and that's a huge mistake in my view.  that's the place we should have stayed.  afghanistan is a crap hole and not worth one more dime or life.  we should have spent 6 months flattening it, not that you'd really be able to tell the difference, and then been done.  anything else that needed doing later could have been done with the occasional bombing until they decided not to host terrorists anymore.

Quote
Kathyp, we might agree on more than we think Wink I like the idea of some state sovreignty, but it seems impractical. For example, if the states took on disaster relief, how exactly does the state devastated by the hurricane take care of itself? If we left welfare to the states, how do impoverished states keep their citizens clothed and fed? If we leave regulation to the states, how does interstate commerce work? And what about national natural resources? What if the western states decided to clear-cut the national forests, something many of us would consider national treasures? Same with education. Should American children have basically similar educations, regardless of whether they grow up in WI or GA?

they would do it in the same way they used to do it.  they'd get together and fix things.  they might have to raise taxes on themselves in the short term to do it.  they might have to put aside some regulations to do it.  originally FEMA was designed to help states coordinate relief in some of these bigger disasters.  states already get federal money for disaster prep and states have national guard, and can request coast guard help.  why should as state expect another to pay for their disaster?  federal money does not come from the government, it comes from us. 

an impoverished state might not be able to keep it's people fed and clothed.  people would have to decide if that's what they really wanted their states to do.  some people might have to move.  some  might even have to work!

clear cuts are beautiful and full of wildlife.  i love them. + timber grows back.  it's a crop. evil
 
i'm not sure how state sovereignty and national treasures clash, but it is true the the feds have taken tons of land that should belong to the states.  here, they have made much of my mountain off limits except for some very limited use, by claiming it a wilderness area.  i must pay for it, but i can't use it. 

schools should belong to the states.  don't like what your school is doing? change things. can't change it?  move. the biggest problem with schools, and cost, is the unions.  it doesn't take a ton of money to teach kids, but it takes a ton of money to support the unions. 

part of the reason for having largely sovereign states was to give people choice.  live in the state that most closely fits your needs and beliefs.  at one point, this even included religious beliefs.  some states had state supported and sanctioned churches.  it was about giving people maximum choice with minimum interference from government.

 yes, that means taking some risk.  it means that some people won't have stuff and won't do as well.  the idea was to have equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. 

interstate commerce used to be limited to things that were really interstate business.  now the clause is used to regulate everything.  if we went back to the original mandate for regulation of interstate commerce, we could keep it, and not interfere with business as much as we currently do.  it's not an all or nothing proposition. 

BTW...you know those farm subsidies you dislike?  thank FDR.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2012, 07:47:45 PM »

Well, I didn't actually say I disliked the subsidies. I do, though Smiley And my R-voting, farming husband. I read the history of the subsidies, and they actually made sense the way they were originally structured--farmers got paid to NOT grow crops when there was a glut. Then, things changed around and they now make no sense at all.

Still, it's more complex than that. Our entire cheap-food system is structured around crop subsidies. Ethanol is messing with that, but regardless Americans are not used to paying much $ for their food.
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The pedigree of honey
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« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2012, 01:57:43 AM »

clear cuts are beautiful and full of wildlife.  i love them. + timber grows back.  it's a crop. evil
Cry Cry Cry Cry
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T Beek
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« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2012, 06:21:50 AM »

Wow, our divisions are more entrenched than ever based on this discussion. Too bad for America, too bad for the world.  But don't worry, the well-off will continue on their merry way while these divisions are persistently and methodically exploited.

Perhaps its these (manipulated?) divisions that caused the Republicans to convince themselves they couldn't loose the election.  Seems apparent from the above, many Republicans (and Dems too) only talk to the like-minded w/in their particular cult and label anyone else as ..........well you readers can fill in the rest  Wink

Yeah, finger pointing and name calling, that's gonna bring us together. 

Bringing us together, our controllers biggest fear is that "we" get together.  You all know that, right?Its why they keep 'creating' these divisions, don't you all know? 

Most of these exploited divisions are meaningless to the majority of the Country yet it is the divisions that we hold on to.  Does anyone else wonder about that?  Not enough, that's for sure. 

As clearly shown above it remains our divisions (real and imagined) that keep us from talking to each other or knowing one another, which I suspect is what caused many Republicans to be so surprised by the results.  "Fair and Balanced" FOX was insisting on a landslide win for Romney all day on election day despite any reality based evidence. 

Alas, for years I've been advising folks to change the channels more frequently, but they just don't listen, favoring the mantra that best fits their own head, leaving the rest (the missing truth?  Perhaps?) for others to embrace. 

Some truths always make some people uncomfortable, always will.

When we reduce our arguments/debates to simply pointing fingers or name calling we do the bidding of the slave masters.  They are thrilled regardless of who wins elections, their lives are affected little by the results. 

Have we learned nothing from history?  Unfortunately, it appears we haven't.

kathyp;  we have NOT left Iraq.  We (mainstream media) only stopped reporting on it.

Why don't people vote?  For many its because they've been fooled into believing it doesn't matter.  The fewer that vote, the better it is for the controllers of our society.

Let the divisions roll on  rolleyes  Baaa-baaa-baaa-aaaa  grin
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luvin honey
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« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2012, 10:19:51 AM »

OK, so you found a few Dems that aren't on welfare. Now turn around and see how many welfare recipients you can find that voted republican. Then you might see the picture.
That's just insulting and doesn't help the conversation at all. It would be like me claiming all Republicans rape our natural resources, outsource jobs to other countries, don't have a grasp on the basics of female anatomy and conception, etc.

I don't find that helpful. Most of the people I know and love are Republican, but it's very difficult to get past their talking points. I actually don't know anyone who voted D based on social nets. I know people who voted based on the environment, the economy, access to healthcare and women's reproductive rights.

The Republican party appears to have become a party of elitists. If they truly aren't, then they're doing an awful PR job of proving otherwise. America is becoming more and more diverse. Like it, don't like it--it doesn't matter. It's just a fact. It's no longer true that rich white men have all the power, and it's always uncomfortable and not our human nature to give up power.

One quote I saw recently sums it up:

"Rebellion always mystifies the oppressor. It appears irrational. It does not make sense. The establishment asks: What are their demands? Why do they hate us? What do they want? The oppressor can never hear the answer, for the answer is always the same—we seek to destroy your power."

Republicans appear completely mystified (and totally unprepared for the possibility) by their loss! In WI, Tommy T. didn't even have a concession speech ready. Neither did Romney. I honestly feel badly for them, as their world is shaking underneath them and it appears to be a world they don't recognize any more. I hope Republicans get back to their roots. Some wonderful things have come from that party, but many Republicans I know are ashamed of them this year and didn't even vote.
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The pedigree of honey
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« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2012, 10:41:48 AM »

 applause applause
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luvin honey
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« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2012, 11:16:26 AM »

indeed.  and if you look at the popular vote map, it said "give me stuff". 
I didn't know this was straight from Bill O'Reilly's mouth until this morning when I was watching post-election news clips.
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2012, 11:25:53 AM »

i don't watch him because i don't like him.  however....if he said it, he's right.

Quote
I don't find that helpful. Most of the people I know and love are Republican, but it's very difficult to get past their talking points. I actually don't know anyone who voted D based on social nets. I know people who voted based on the environment, the economy, access to healthcare and women's reproductive rights.

and this is right out of the liberals talking points.  as long as they own most of the press, they can keep saying this stuff over and over and people are uninformed enough to believe it.

environment:  what do dems do on the environment that is meaningful.  they are successful at keeping us from using our own resources and making the cost of everything go up, but what do they really accomplish?

access to healthcare:  that's getting worse under obama care, not better.  it's costing more.  people are losing jobs.  they will be forced onto government exchanges and that will limit care more. 

womans reproductive rights:  that's always a funny one for me.  you have the right not to have sex.  you have the right to use birth control YOU PAY FOR IT.  you have the right to have an abortion, again, YOU PAY FOR IT.  what other rights do you want or think you are going to lose? 
you do not have the right to demand that i pay for what you want.  government does not have the constitutional right to force organizations to provide something they believe is morally wrong. 

so what nasty things are we doing that i'm missing? 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2012, 03:54:43 PM »

Speaking of the health care thing. A friend of mine who is 70 and on the Healspring Medicare Plan went to his regular doctor Monday and was told he might have trouble getting in to see his doc next time he needed to. There are six docs in the group they have been seeing around sixty medicare Patience a day. The Govt. has told them they had to cut back to 20 medicare patience a day. The doc said because of the money Obama Care took out of Medicare.
And for the womens rights thing. I agree that women have the right to scr** around all they want, but they shouldn't expect someone else to be responsible for paying for it. I'm against killing unborn babies and I'm against my money paying for abortions in this country or other countries where Obama is paying for them.
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