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Author Topic: I'm in NEW JERSEY... Why should I vote (rhetorically of course)  (Read 2190 times)
beemaster
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« on: November 05, 2012, 11:07:21 AM »

So, minus our gruff no BS Governor, New Jersey is a Blue State that is not even an issue in this campaign. I don't think I've seen three commercials this entire election season from either Presidential Candidate. Electoral College speaking, we are a given and our vote is moot.

Bad enough, but one stupid reason we do vote is our neighbors have an Obama sandwich-board placed in their living room window - and there being two of them means we will at least void their votes. I feel dirty and I can't even get into the mud of this game.

We vote cause we have too, or we can't complain when the times come when complaining is necessary. We vote cause little else (but voting, taxes and jury duty) are asked of us. We vote because generations are effected by the choice we make, but we vote in NJ as a RED BUTTON PUSHER knowing it means nothing.

I have a plan, call it Beemaster's 2 point plan:

1) All Presidential voting must be held in SWING STATES only - saving candidates, PACS and the new Super PACs to concentrate their money where it only matters.
2) Dump all their porta-potties on New Jersey to help rebuild our beaches, their's enough manure there to re-grass all the dunes when they replace them.

or MY 5 point plan:

1) Get rid of the electoral College (this isn't 1812)
2) Hold a National Primary Day (let's pick our candidates early) cause these caucuses and straw votes often kill off very good candidates.
3) initiate voluntary online secure voting (this is now being done in some areas) still vote at you polling center if you wish, but give this option.
4) Let the person with the most popular votes win without a battle all the way to the Supreme Court.
5) Let's take advantage of the 21st century and MAKE EVERY VOTERS VOTE COUNT from the single primary day to the general election..

The only issue I really see changing is political campaigns will take place in the MOST DENSELY POPULATED AREAS - changing the states that are now Swing STATES to new SWING REGIONS, but it DOES NOT effect the single vote of any person in this country - we all count.

I just draw a simple comparative that being called as an ALTERNATE JURY MEMBER on a very long case of great importance and then dismissed when the case is finally in the juries hands, cause you are not needed any more - that's how being a New Jersian and MOST OF THE STATES in this country are feeling because we are not SWING STATES. I'm tired election after election hearing the vote could get down to 80 thousand votes in a county in X state.

STOP THE MADNESS - Am I WRONG?Huh
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2012, 12:06:03 PM »

I agree with your 5 point plan to reform the voting system. applause  It makes perfect sense to me and helps prevent voters from being disfranchised.  However, you know the “conservatives” would never go for it.  They’re too focused on the past to realize times have changed.  Lots of the old ideas from times before cars, electricity, computers, TV, sliced bread, and soap are obsolete.
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2012, 12:06:13 PM »

not entirely.   evil

i live in a very blue state also.  on the map, most of it is red, but where the people clump up, they are blue.  there are more clumpers.  i know my state will go for obama, but there are tons of local things that i can influence.  congress, state and us, judges, ballot measures, etc.  the more conservative policy i can influence in my state, the better my life will be.

i like the idea of a national primary day.  by the time the primary vote gets to me, the decision is done.  i also like the idea of a national voting day, but that seems to have gone in the toilet with all of this early voting crap.  i'm all for making accommodations for those who need them, but this idea of starting early voting a month before the election day so that people can willy nilly wander in to vote, is just a recipe for fraud.  except for those who can't, everyone should show up at their polling place ON ELECTION DAY with ID and vote.    i'd sure get rid of this vote by mail thing that we do here.

electoral college or not is not such a big deal to me, although i suspect that it might give the advantage to the conservatives in most elections. i don't think you can figure that out by past popular votes because there are people in states like mine, knowing their vote won't matter and not having the good sense that god gave a gnat to understand that local stuff is important...just don't bother.  most people's ideology is right of center on individual issues, but they don't always vote that way.  go figure.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2012, 01:15:34 PM »

I like your beach rebuilding plan.  And I like the idea of a single primary day.   Beyond that, I don't know how much change people will go for. 
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2012, 04:46:37 PM »

I think the electoral college wou;d work just fine if 48 states would do away with winner take all on electoral votes. Pennsylvania fly over country loses all their electorals to what the eastern corridor votes. Perhaps we could chunk off the Eastern 25 mile chunk and give it to New Jersey/ They seem to follow that voting block anyhow.
However,our state is really in play now. Even though the field in the primary for me was narrowed significantly ,I feel I have more voice in the outcome this time than last.
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 10:43:55 PM »

If you really want fair for all "Americans" we should all have a voice in the primary's and dump the electoral collage vote system and elect by poplar vote only.That means everyone's vote counts down to the nity gritty last vote. I am tiered of not having a good choice of candidates to choose from! Any one running for leader of this country should be able to show at least one year in advance that he or she has the knowledge and some background to support leading a country as large as America.Also stop the large contributions from all sources,make it unlawful to donate any more than $10.00 for any one person or corp. Just think how much sand you could replace on NJ. beach with "TWO BILLION" $$ This is not an ADD to SAVE YOUR PORTA POTTIES!! grin
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2012, 12:42:48 AM »

Interesting debate on the Electoral College a bit lengthy but worth the read if you have strong feelings either way.

http://www.pennumbra.com/debates/debate.php?did=8

The topic is a lot more complex than simply supporting majority rule.  It’s not a perfect system, but it meets the Constitutional requirements and it’s far from archaic.  Personally, I have mixed feelings but I tend to come down on the side of the Electoral College for many of the reasons stated in the debate.   I believe it could be tweaked, but the unintended consequences of tinkering with things worries me far more than the shortcomings we have seen.

Be glad you are not in a battleground state.  It's awful.  Not to mention the incessant barrage of ads, robocalls, junk mail etc, there is the cost the campaigns create for the local governments when we are "graced" with their presence.  Hundreds of thousands for police security alone have been spent in Ohio, none of it reimbursed by the campaigns.  I may move before the next one.  But hey, after Dec 21 it won’t matter anyway.
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2012, 07:45:25 AM »

Everyone is complaining about the popular vote and the electoral college, but remember we do not live in a democracy, we live in a republic.   
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2012, 08:45:21 AM »

Being from downstate illinois, our votes are worthless in any election other than locals, but we make the trip every time with some deep down hope that maybe this time it will count..Several years ago they had , golf course, construction  on the ballet,local issue. My wife and I almost stayed home, it lost by 2 votes. Have no problem with golfers, have several friends that seem to enjoy it, at least once in a while., our problem with this course, they wanted to fund it with tax money..Who knows some day we could have a squeaker and the trip would be worthwhile..dl
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2012, 01:02:43 PM »

They are so worried about disenfranchising voters with voter ID laws,   but could care less about all the voters who are disenfranchised because their vote doesn't count.   I'm all for staying with the electoral college,  but let's have the states assign the votes by congressional district.    Then you won't have large cities like NYC and Philly carrying the whole state.

 
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2012, 01:39:00 PM »

Quote
Then you won't have large cities like NYC and Philly carrying the whole state.

might work.  in my state, two cities make the decisions for the entire state.  most of the state is red, but those two blue places call all the shots. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2012, 02:29:11 PM »

If it’s unfair for the majority of people to decide things in a Democracy (ok republic), then how is it fair to give unequal weight to a few rural beeks?  Hey, I live in a rural area too, but I believe it would be unfair for my vote to have more weight than a voter in Detroit, Lansing, or Grand Rapids on National or Statewide issues.  My rural vote has more weight at the local level, as it should bee. 

When you allow the politicians to partition up voters into groups, you are just asking for abuse.  Just look at some of the CRAZY districting they’ve done over the years to make sure they get re-elected.  I think the positives of every vote having the same weight, outweigh the negatives and abuse of grouping votes into separate baskets and then counting baskets.
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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2012, 02:39:41 PM »

Quote
When you allow the politicians to partition up voters into groups, you are just asking for abuse.  Just look at some of the CRAZY districting they’ve done over the years to make sure they get re-elected.  I think the positives of every vote having the same weight, outweigh the negatives and abuse of grouping votes into separate baskets and then counting baskets.

so why do we vote for congress members by district? 

Quote
If it’s unfair for the majority of people to decide things in a Democracy (ok republic), then how is it fair to give unequal weight to a few rural beeks?

a couple of states already allow the vote to be split.  by doing this, they allow each districts vote to be represented.  this doesn't give unequal weight to anyone/area.
Quote
If it’s unfair for the majority of people to decide things in a Democracy (ok republic), then how is

democracy and republic are not the same.  in a democracy, the majority does decide and there is no protection for the minority.  in a republic, all are represented. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2012, 02:44:18 PM »

Like I've said, there are LOTS of flaws in our obsolete, pre-soap, system  Wink
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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2012, 03:13:41 PM »

i'd sure get rid of this vote by mail thing that we do here.

“There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we see high turnout because of vote-by-mail,” says Oregon Secretary of State Kate Brown. “It’s extremely convenient and accessible; it’s secure and cost-effective.”  http://news.yahoo.com/voter-turnout-6-states-rank-highest-why-143723721.html


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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2012, 03:40:59 PM »

it is convenient.  don't know that it's particularly cost effective.  it is not secure,  and it does encourage off the cuff voting by people who would otherwise not bother.  accessibility was never an issue because vote by mail was always available for those who needed it, as was transportation.
it has also destroyed the intangibles;  the sense of community when people show up at the neighborhood polling place to vote, and the sense that voting was important  enough to make the effort to go out to vote.

it caters to the lazy and if it were such a good thing, you'd see other states doing it.  we have had it for years. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2012, 12:54:50 PM »

Arguing for the removal of the EC is a pointless waste of time... It is deeply embedded into the US Constitution and it is doubtful that it could ever be removed or replaced. (see article 2 section 1).

Votes are not thrown out at all, we really do not have a winner takes all system and we the people do not really vote for the President. It isn't a single election, but rather multiple state by state elections and wins. We vote for Electors in our perspective States. These electors together make up the Electoral College as a whole and they vote for the President.
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2012, 02:38:17 PM »

Do you really want the government to massing while the Constitution   shocked shocked  IMHO I say no





    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2012, 03:12:19 PM »

This debate reminds me of a good quote:

Democracy is a poor system of government at best; the only thing that can honestly be said in its favor is that it is eight times as good as any other method the human race has ever tried.
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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2012, 05:58:56 PM »

We live in a republic,not a actual democracy. Designed that way to slow knee jerk reactions. But each state does have the ability to change how its electors are given to the candidates. Two states to not give all electoral votes to one candidate. The people of the states need to push for change at that level.  If an amendment were to be drawn to dispense of the EC,it would still have to go through the state houses.And a Constitutional convention would have to be held. It can not be changed legislatively.
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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2012, 05:59:56 PM »

They are so worried about disenfranchising voters with voter ID laws,   but could care less about all the voters who are disenfranchised because their vote doesn't count.   I'm all for staying with the electoral college,  but let's have the states assign the votes by congressional district.    Then you won't have large cities like NYC and Philly carrying the whole state.

 
Exactly!
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 03:10:53 PM »

I like it!
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2012, 03:20:42 PM »

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/countymaprb1024.png

election results by county.  no dem would ever be elected.   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2012, 04:53:22 PM »

    Seems like a lot of this debate would not be happening if the US adopted the Westminster system. Some of us do not agree with the last election results here in Australia but there is no real fuss over the election process. The view from this part of the world is that the US government, regardless of the color is losing control of the historical values it has held for so long. Undoubteably this could be due to a large extent to the influence of the Latino, Asian and Afro- American increase in population. Australia is heading down the same path.
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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2012, 05:03:09 PM »

that system is somewhere between the straight parliamentary system of England and our divided powers, as i understand it.  i think the biggest hindrance to a system like that is that our powers are supposed to reside in the states, not in the federal government.  thus the whole republic thing.  we were never designed to have an all powerful central government.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2012, 05:39:58 PM »

Yes Sir, you are wrong.  When the forces of Bathhouse Barry (not talking about you!!!) managed to have 69 precincts in Cleveland where Romney recieved not ONE vote and it looks like more ballots were cast in Florida than there are voters, it should start ringing warning bells somewhere.  Again it looks like our Military members overseas failed to get votes counted because they are red state boys in huge porportion.  Why do you think an photo Identified voter is just like garlic to the Left wing vampire.   I am afraid that it is already a foregone conclusion that Joe Stalin was right.  He didn't care who voted, he cared WHO counted the votes.    As far as the electoral college disappearing.  I live in one of those tiny states 550 miles wide and 375 miles deep with a million people.  We would be totally disinfranchised--a lot like you are.   No those dead white men put something pretty special together and it looks like we failed to keep it.  It was good while it lasted.
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