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Author Topic: Sandy II  (Read 1403 times)
kingbee
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« on: November 02, 2012, 04:04:47 PM »

I don’t want to make hay from the tragedy of those hit by Hurricane Sandy but the vision of wind, Sun, and tide supplied energy is an over blown pipe dream.  If we are to depend on these three forms of energy now, in the foreseeable future, or even in the distant future every electric utility customer MUST be prepared, willing, and able to endure power outages and shortages on a recurring basis as severe as the power interruption what bee master is now enduring.

All of the land mass South of the Ohio River and East of Oklahoma is completely unsuitable for generating wind energy in any significant or commercial amount.   Also the same is true for tidal energy, even in coastal areas.  At best solar energy in this vast area is a crap shoot except for maybe 10- 12% of the daylight hours and then only on what passes for clear or sunny days. 

The nice thing about coal, natural gas, and petroleum generated electricity is that the fuels needed to generate this electric energy can be easily transported to the area needing energy generation.  Once delivered these fuels can be stockpiled or stored on sight until the utility customers needs the electricity.  Try doing that with the Sun, the winds, or the oceans.

There is NO renewable energy source other than hydro-electric energy that is capable of coming on line in a quick or timely fashion to relieve grid overload or to meet demand.  Some of us must think that the wind can be commanded to blow say 30 minutes before you put on your morning coffee.  So be prepared to buy a new TV, Air Conditioner, PC, refrigerator and other electric appliance (like your new Chevy Volt electric car battery) almost monthly as you burn up your current appliances from electrical overloads, spikes and brown-outs.  Its simple Physics.

Simple Physics is a hard and unyielding science unlike the soft, gooey, greasy, feel good stuff called science that is behind Man Made Global Warming-Climate Change.   This is true in so far as simple Physics does not now and never will yield to the supposedly superior knowledge claimed by Left Leaning Political SCIENCE PhDs with tenure.   Remember, no matter how fast or hard you beat your gums, you can’t repeal the laws of Physics with warm spittle.   Only a tenured fool would try. 

If you want renewable Green energy go to work on the problems that we will deal with in our next lesson. The next lesson will deal with electrical resistance and why the long distance transmission, shipment, or storage of large amounts of electrical current is currently impossible and that only the long distance transportation and storage of large amounts of fossil fuels for the generation of electricity is FEASIBLE.  Class dismissed.
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 05:29:16 PM »

the other problem is the grid.  if The One was going spend billions on "infrastructure" the one place that really could use some updating is the power grid.  we can't even begin to feed alternative energies in until that is done.  they have already found this to be true with the (relatively) small scale wind and solar farms.  we have a problem here with conflicts between hydro and wind.  we end up paying the wind farms not to produce.  that makes no sense.

in those places where it is feasible and where companies wish to take the risk with THEIR money, i have no problem with alternative energies.  however, developing them large scale when we don't have the capacity to properly use them makes no sense.  paying them to not produce makes even less sense.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2012, 05:56:14 PM »

Professor Kingbee, I’m not sure rather to laugh or cry on your Physics lesson.  laugh laugh laugh
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iddee
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2012, 07:57:46 PM »

Spoken like a true dem. Can't counter, so brush it off.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kingbee
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 09:31:53 PM »

I have a couple of bed time stories about MMGW for the amusement of my PC friends.  I call them Little RED Riding Hood and the Two Bears
I never read or hear about MMGW/climate Change anymore but that I think about the story of Noah and the Great Flood.
The moral or plot of these two stories are the same.  

In the made FOR Holly Wood version Yahweh destroys the Earth with rain water because the people living here are both wicked and sinful meaning that their morals conflict with the morals of Yahweh.

In the made BY Holly Wood version Al Gore destroys the Earth with melt water because the people living here are both wicked and sinful meaning that they own or buy too much "Stuff" but now that Al Gore owns so much "STUFF" himself, his morals dovetail nicely with the morals of the wicked humans.

In both the made FOR and the made BY Holly Wood versions the hero of the story goes on a quest to capture two Polar Bears, one of each sex.  The problem is that this Heterosexual version of the Great Flood isn't PC enough to satisfy the Gay Polar Bear demographic who payed good Shekels to see what they thought was going to be a soft porn flick about two young gay Polar Bears frolicking in the new fallen snow.  OK OK THEN, shocked one young Gay Polar bear and one much older Gay Polar bear frolicking in the new fallen snow. Kiss

 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 09:59:11 PM by kingbee » Logged
BlueBee
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 11:51:52 PM »

In case our right wing beeks were too busy learning physics from Fox News, you may have missed our beloved fellow American (and fellow Michigander) Michael Moore on the Piers Morgan show the other night.

Here’s what Michael said about the Republican deniers of global warming:  ‘These are the same people who believe that Adam and Eve were riding around on Dinosaurs 6000 years ago’.  laugh laugh laugh laugh

As for responding to the finer points in Professor Kingsbee's Physics lesson; it’s getting too late on a Friday night for me to bring my fellow beeks up through 200 years of modern physics.  I’ll try to introduce you to Nikola Tesla and AC power transmission some other night Wink
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kingbee
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2012, 02:31:58 PM »

Here is the first hurdle that GREEN RENEWABLE ENERGY must overcome and it is a very high hurdle indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission

“The unvarying (or slowly varying over many hours) portion of the electric demand is known as the base load and is generally served best by large facilities (which are therefore efficient due to economies of scale) with low variable costs for fuel and operations. Such facilities might be nuclear or coal-fired power stations, or hydroelectric, while other renewable energy sources such as concentrated solar thermal and geothermal power have the potential to provide base load power. Renewable energy sources such as solar photovoltaics, wind, wave, and tidal are, due to their INTERMITTENCY, are not considered "base load" but can still add [Meaning sometimes] power to the grid. The remaining power demand, if any, is supplied by peaking power plants, which are typically smaller, faster-responding, and higher cost sources, such as combined cycle or combustion turbine plants fueled by natural gas.”  The upper case words and bold face print were added by myself for emphisis as well as for clarity.   

Unless you can reliably predict the wind speed, volume, duration, and time as well as solar gain, and cloud cover months in advance, green energy or even green co-generation are a piddling business that can never pay for it’s self or become reliable enough for anyone to depend on it for any of their electric power needs. 

The fastest peaking power plants are hydro-electric plants.  Hydro-electric plants can come online or go off line as fast as the gates on the pen-stocks leading to the turbine blades can be fully opened or closed. When not is use producing electricity the dynamos or generators of a hydro-electric plant can also serve in a condensing capacity by removing or soaking up excess current from the grid by acting like a huge electric motor.  I suspect this is why some of you may notice the blades of a wind turbine rotating in dead calm conditions.

 Don’t be fooled by a ship load of fools, the words GREEN ENERGY or RENEWABLE GREEN ENERGY are code words for NO ENERGY!!!  Which is the end game of the most strident segment of the environmental movement.   
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buzzbee
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2012, 06:35:19 PM »

And now Michael Moore is a scientist?
He is nothing more than a Hollywood lib,thats it. His credibility is only among liberals. Him and Al Gore are a couple hot air has beens. They are hypocrites that live in big houses consuming and spewing a lot of carbon and telling us to save the planet.
http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2011/11/15/michael-moores-huge-home-outs-him-as-part-of-the-1-percent/#1797-2
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/05/03/stunning-pictures-al-gores-new-9-million-mansion-media-totally-ignore



And why is it hard to believe in a higher being than it is to believe everything came from nothing in a big bang?  And science has proven itself wrong time and time again. maybe science is wrong now.
remember when they thought the earth was flat? Not all that long ago. And remember when the chariots pulled the sun across the sky? Again it the scope of time,it was not that long ago.

The "facts" in science are just what we understand them to be at any current time. Evolution if you will.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 06:49:44 PM by buzzbee » Logged
kingbee
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2012, 07:22:45 PM »

... In case our right wing bee ks were too busy learning physics from Fox News, you may have missed our beloved fellow American (and fellow Michigander) Michael Moore on the Piers Morgan show the other night...

So now one must be from Michigan (fellow Michigander in B's words) to be political relevant.

WOW.  That description fits Mitt Romney!!!!  Thank you for agreeing with me BB.
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2012, 08:03:35 PM »

LOL  darn!!  i missed the chance to get some unbiased info from MM the Michiganer. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Sunnyboy2
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2012, 09:42:18 PM »

Wind energy is being generated here in SW. Wyoming.  A problem it is creating has been touched on.  Because it is not a constant source of generation, lines must be over built to handle the spikes of power when it does produce. This means our grid that is already pushing into the safety margins for carry capacity, must be pushed even further.  This adds to the ecpence. 
It also means that it is used for more than just intermittent surplus to coal, gas, or hydro plants, it must have a back up by more inefficient natural gas generators there are.  They are only generators that can start producing power with very little lead time.
So. . .  By using wind, we pay more for infrastructure, more for generation, and are more wasteful of the non-renuables we do use.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2012, 02:58:22 AM »

Professor, from your OWN link:  “As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for DC electricity was determined to be 7,000 km (4,300 mi). For AC it was 4,000 km (2,500 mi), though all transmission lines in use today are substantially shorter”.  Now how long across is the USA again?  

Quote
All of the land mass South of the Ohio River and East of Oklahoma is completely unsuitable for generating wind energy in any significant or commercial amount.
Tell the Edmund Fitzgerald there isn’t much wind on the Great Lakes!  
http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/maps/chap2/2-01m.html

Quote
The nice thing about coal, natural gas…..is the fuels… can be easily transported to the area needing energy generation.  Once delivered these fuels can be stockpiled or stored on sight until the utility customers needs the electricity.
Natural gas is not stored on site and moving tones of coal is not exactly an easy job; nor is getting rid of fly ash.  Just ask your friends in Kingston TN about that.

Quote
There is NO renewable energy source other than hydro-electric energy that is capable of coming on line in a quick or timely fashion to relieve grid overload or to meet demand.
What demand huh huh  This is the really FUNNY aspect of the right wing beeks obsession with the power grid.  Thanks to the Democrats pushing electrical efficiency laws through the Congress, the electrical demand growth in the USA is only averaged about 1% over the last 10 years and demand has actually has been flat lined for the past 5 years.  This happened in spite of the idiots on Fox “News” telling their viewers how the big bad “government” is ruining the American way of life by banning the horridly inefficient incandescent light bulb.  The big bad government also increased the efficiency standards for a ton of electrical devices in the past 10 years to reduce the load on the electrical power grid.  New laws for AC compressor efficiencies, TV wattage, etc.  Gee, maybe we should try solving the oil problem this way too…..since it WORKS!!!!

The hilarious thing about this make believe problem the right wing beeks want to dump a bunch of money into is this:  The capacity of the grid is really only a big problem is we all start driving General Motors Volts everyday!  It is TRUE that the grid can’t even come close to supplying the electrical energy that would be required if we all drove that fine automobile.  Professor have you ordered your Volt from "Government Motors" yet?  I hear the UAW is really anxious for your order  Smiley
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2012, 10:05:07 AM »

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The hilarious thing about this make believe problem the right wing beeks want to dump a bunch of money into is this:  The capacity of the grid is really only a big

we are not talking about overall capacity...at least i am not.  it's the condition of the grid that is the biggest issue. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kingbee
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2012, 06:22:32 PM »

BB, SAY what you mean, and mean what you say, and that is that Obama's policies has put the price of oil, electricity, and food beyond the reach of the poorest Americans!!!  See wasn't that easier than all that beating around the Bush that you are always doing?  (Pun intended.)
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