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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2012, 07:10:21 PM »

Sorry to hear about your situation and all the destruction near you.  Hopefully the whole country will get it's act together to provide the help you need. 

I understand that electrical workers and equipment are being sent from as far away as California. 
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2012, 07:14:02 PM »

I can't get an appt. with our FPL Engineer until the 13th because everyone else in his office is up in NJ.

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2012, 07:18:26 PM »

I feel for you John. We were without power or water for 28 days after Charlie nailed us in '04. Bathed in a friends pool and used our little colman camp stove to cook. Glad to know y'all are ok though!

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2012, 07:29:38 PM »

The photos and video are unbelievable; they always are after a major storm surge.  Sure hope the best for NJ, it’s going to be tough for a lot of people.  At least in FL when we lost power, we didn’t have to worry about freezing to death.  Michigan also sent lineman east to help with the power, but it takes a lot of time to repair that much damage.
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 10:18:38 PM »

wondered how you were doing.  was hoping you'd check in and let us know.  glad the power is back on.  in the grand scheme of things, spoiled food is not so bad. i bet no fuel sucks.  hang in.  things always get better if you are patient.
sorry, need to read the screen with reading glasses.  sorry no power sad
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 10:49:48 AM »

Sorry to hear about your situation and all the destruction near you.  Hopefully the whole country will get it's act together to provide the help you need.  

I understand that electrical workers and equipment are being sent from as far away as California.  

Our local radio station said the electrical workers in NJ wouldn't let the non union crews from AL help restore electricity because they were not union.
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2012, 01:32:23 PM »

heard that also.  i think that if you turn away help, you should sit in the dark and enjoy it.  this is one of the reasons i hate urban  disasters and am not a fan of the east coast. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2012, 03:36:56 PM »

With all the stuff going on in New York City they are still going to run the marathon. Can you believe it.
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2012, 07:21:10 PM »

Day 5. No power until Wednesday next week. Much power around us is restored but 300 homes where I am are completely blacked out.

Propane ventless heater doing magic and it is amazing how well you see with a few candles after a while.

What food we have is in a borrowed ice chest filled with frozen water bottles.

Gasoline is not as bad to get here s it was with power restored. North of here mile long lines is common.

I just get to check in in my iPod when at a hotspot at work. I'll be in touch.
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2012, 06:31:59 PM »

Forwarded post from John(Beemaster):

Thought I'd try writing a longer post and cut and paste it when I got wifi at work (which I get for just a few minutes while making rounds to boiler rooms on my base).

Our electric company told me that Wednesday we should have power restored which will be 9 days in a very dark residential neighborhood of 300 or so homes. I'm home now listening to a podcast as I type this. So glad I can recharge cellphones and iPod at work as well as refreeze water bottles for the cooler. We really don't have much fridge food in the cooler but want to keep it ready so when we get something we have a way to chill it.

Most of the food stores still are short on everything. Many were out of power or on generators for days. Lots if stuff was tossed for safety reasons.

I have a few hundred photos from www.app.com our area newspaper website - I took pics of the screen off my work computer to show my wife. These are the first images she has seen.

When Geoff from Australia visited here we went to the boardwalk in Seaside which is now gone along with hundreds of destroyed million dollar homes to rental bungalows.

I don't miss Internet or tv too much but I do miss movies and we just started watching the series Alphas and there's about 15 episodes to catch up with. We have one powerful FM radio talk station that keeps us informed as well as all the big AM stations in NYC too.

Out of my 11 coworkers in 9 different towns over a 30 mile area, 1 has power, 3 on generator and the rest roughing it.

My friend Mike and his brother waded in 4ft high water pulling a canoe filled with what they could save from their parents home which is destroyed. In that town now curfew from 7-5 is in place and police warn looters (they come in by boat) will be shot.

I think most of you have seen our governor Chris Cristie by now if you have followed this hurricane Sandy at all. He is likely a presidential candidate in 2016. He is a republican gov in a blue state and was begged to run this time. He loves nj and takes no crap. He is a real heavy guy that is a true no BS leader. Times like this you need someone tough and I believe none are tougher.

So I write this by candlelight at midnight Saturday morning not knowing what to say other than be thankful we lost nothing but some inconveniences while others gave nothing.

It gets old hearing though about people who live on the coasts deserve what they get. And same with earthquake zones, tornado alley and so on.

One thing most people overlook is NJ is the most densely populated state with nearly 7500 per square mile. This huge population is a real issue when talking still 3 million homes in NYC and NJ still without power.

Nothing close to this has happened here in recorded history although we have had hurricanes come this way just as we have tornadoes and wild fires. A few really mild earthquakes too.

No where is really safe and I think it sick anyone believes people deserve what they get. That is sick.

Finally about climate change. I respect everyone's opinion but I believe and always will it is cyclical and likely has happened thousands of times and will thousand more.

We just happen to be here and now and observing it. Have we contributed, I would say sure but I also believe Earth is a living entity that can and does cure itself by balancing whatever it needs too.

If humans get to be too much we will see a plague like never before with maybe a billion dead. Whatever it takes.

I wish as I sit humbled by Mother Earths mighty power and know that the GLOBAL WARMISTS couldn't sell that crap in a bag, so it became climate change. But I'm fairly curtain the majority of those mentioned in this paragraph are LIBERALS dressed in CENTRISTS clothing.

I also wish rathe :angel:r than (or along with gender) we had a little red or blue dot next to members willing to state their leanings - a white dot for those more in the middle. Maybe a left or right arrow lol.

But I this climate change opinions do a pretty good job of doing this already.

Gonna save my battery for listening to a zombie podcast radio play that is pretty good - it's called WE'RE ALIVE and entertaining except it is cut into 20 minute pieces with brief commercials.

Write you all again soon.

Ps. Tapatalk was not working so I am posting on the tiny web page. Ken could you repost this in the other Sandy topics. Thanks to all following. It felt good although tedious typing this out on the iPod. But I needed to do it. Peace. 
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2012, 09:49:55 PM »

Forwarded post from John(Beemaster):

No where is really safe and I think it sick anyone believes people deserve what they get. That is sick.

I wouldn't say anyone deserves what has happened to NJ, NY.  But we have to learn from history.  I felt that way in 1993 when the Mississippi River flooded and destroyed so many homes and businesses from Iowa to Mississippi.  The problem was that many of those homes had been flooded out before.  They just collect their federal flood insurance payments and rebuild in the same place... over and over.   There will be more hurricanes in Jersey.   As tragic as this disaster is,  it is also an opportunity to rebuild sensibly.  That means moving the population back away from the coast and building on stilts. My opinion is that no house that was severely damaged by this storm should be rebuilt in the same place and with the same design as it had before. (I thought the same thing about New Orleans).  Gov.  Christie has already asked Obama to bring in the Army Corps.  to help the state  to rebuild, including some VERY effective stabilized dunes that protected areas where the Corp was in charge of the beach.
Quote

Finally about climate change. I respect everyone's opinion but I believe and always will it is cyclical and likely has happened thousands of times and will thousand more....

If humans get to be too much we will see a plague like never before with maybe a billion dead. Whatever it takes.
You are right but that's not much comfort.  Yes the Earth will survive our folly.  Many species will survive, probably including humans.  But civilization may not survive if we don't make serious changes.
Quote

I wish as I sit humbled by Mother Earths mighty power and know that the GLOBAL WARMISTS couldn't sell that crap in a bag, so it became climate change. But I'm fairly curtain the majority of those mentioned in this paragraph are LIBERALS dressed in CENTRISTS clothing.
John, you can color my dot VERY LIBERAL but that's not why I think MMGW is real. As I said earlier, this is not a political issue for me.  I'm a biochemist with a decent understanding of physics.  I've been reading about CO2 induced warming since 1980... an article in Scientific American.  It had NO political connotations.  It was raised as a scientific issue.  If fact, there are few issues in science that are so obviously true as this.  It's like falling off a log obvious.

As to why the name was changed from Global Warming to Climate Change, that is because scientists are not very good politicians.  They thought that the right wing was confused about the fact that trapped heat can give rise to extremes in both directions... in all directions.  For example, the high pressure over Greenland that forced Sandy to turn west was caused (probability increased by)  the melt of Arctic sea ice this summer.  We live on a little ball and everything is interconnected.  That includes episodes of extreme cold caused by global warming.  So the scientists and some accommodating members of the press tried to re-package it in language that would include all extreme events.  But to those who oppose the idea of MMGW on political grounds, that made zero difference.  They were determined NOT to understand, regardless of the language used.

Those who deny MMGW on political grounds are being very dishonest.  First they decide what they want the outcome of the argument to be.  Then they go looking for any explanation that suits that pre-determined outcome.  As I said earlier, I would be delighted to believe that this is not an instance of man changing the climate to his own great detriment.  But I don't.
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2012, 10:43:54 PM »

Thoughts and prayers are with you. 
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2012, 10:48:17 AM »

Like all floods, if you didn't build your house in a flood zone you would not be flooded out.  I almost got into a fight with a Texan in I think 1993 over a flood issue in the longstar state.
I enjoy all the debate and discussion about the weather.  One thing I do know is that the correct nickname is "The Lone Star State".  From living down here on the Gulf Coast for all of my 44 years, I have some experience with hurricanes (although not an anywhere close to an expert).  Before it made landfall, the weather folks were all like kids hopped up on Halloween candy with the possibility of a "Super Storm". They were talking about 95 mph winds like they were never seen before.  It was a category 1 storm.  Now I am  not trying do diminish the effects that all of our fellow Americans are going through in the aftermath.  Like Kathy, I have gone in and  volunteered in the wake of these storms the help people put their lives and homes back together.  What made this so bad IMO is that it made landfall in one of the worst geographically shaped places it could have and in one of the most densely populated areas of our country.  When Rita hit us a few years back, we were without power for over 2 weeks.  Blazing heat and cleanup made it a great challenge.  I was glad that I was in the country where resources are available,(squirrels, deer, water etc.) My point is that the storm was not as big and bad as they are making it out to be, it just hit in a very bad location.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2012, 12:39:00 PM »

My point is that the storm was not as big and bad as they are making it out to be, it just hit in a very bad location.


You are right that the location and population density made this a bad storm. Other factors that made it worse were the synchronization with the full moon tide and the angle at which the storm approached the coast which made the storm surge much higher.  I know you are focused on the wind speed as an indicator of the strength of the storm.  The power of the wind at a particular point is directly related to wind speed, but the overall strength of the storm including not just wind speed but also the geographical area that is affected, is better measured by how low the barometric pressure goes.

Sandy's strength, as indicated by barometric pressure just before landfall, set a record. The lower the pressure, the stronger the storm.

When hurricane hunter aircraft measured its central pressure at 940 millibars -- 27.76 inches -- Monday afternoon, it was the lowest barometric reading ever recorded for an Atlantic storm to make landfall north of Cape Hatteras, North Carolina. The previous record holder was the 1938 "Long Island Express" Hurricane, which dropped as low as 946 millibars.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/30/us/sandy-records/index.html

So I'm saying that this was a very powerful storm in terms of it's total energy.  If Sandy had tightened down into a storm the size of Rita, the wind speeds would have been much higher.
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2012, 01:01:02 PM »

... change is normal.  I’m still a little skeptical of what is warming the climate, but something is.  This is especially noticeable at the northern latitudes....  


You are correct.  That is why the temperatures were much colder last winter in the real NORTHERN latitudes you mentioned.  BTW, Central Michigan is not in a "NORHERN" latitudes [sic].  I consider Lansing, Michigan as the quiescently center of Michigan.  the latitude of Lansing, Michigan is 42.7325°N.  This fixes Central Michigan about smack dab half way between Marcells, France and Rome, Italy.

Here are a couple of links to pictures in the above two named European cities.  Please not the palm trees.
Are you telling us that this is what the local flora looks like up there in Central Michigan?
The first link is for Marcells, France.

http://www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/image/862-03887775/Marseille-Provence-France;-A-cafe-amidst-building-and-palm-trees

The second link is for Saint Peter's which is smack dab in the middle of Rome.
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/marite2008/3755573919/

OK BB, are those of you shivering in those (LOL) Northern Latitudes of Central Michigan too hot?  Are the people sweltering in the Northern latitudes of Marcelle, France or Rome, Italy too cold?  Is it the other way around?Huh   huh  It has to be one or the other because this is the endgame of all the leftist policy arguments that I have heard in my lifetime.  There arguments are always about spreading human misery equally among all the Earth's population and the Leftist policies are never about making life better for anyone.  

So how much heat will the Utopian left tax away from France and Italy to make Michigan warm enough to grow palm trees?  Or is Michigan going to transport their colder local climate to Southern Europe and teach the Spanish how to play ice hockey instead of grow olives?  You know, you could move lock, stock, and barrel to Sardinia and teach the locals how to fish through holes in the ice!  These last two options BTW would make Central Michigan much colder which you seem to think is NORMAL if not preferable.  But you can not nor at this time can anyone else point to any long term definitive warming trend anywhere on Earth, not one!  
  
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BlueBee
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2012, 01:06:12 PM »

So I'm saying that this was a very powerful storm in terms of it's total energy.

From the Huff:  “Wave heights out in the middle of lake (Michigan) reached 20 feet, short of the 23 foot record set last year by a strong storm pushing down from Canada.  The difference this time is the winds are from the edges of what had been a tropical storm, one vast enough to reach hundreds of miles inland.”  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/31/lake-michigan-waves-2012-_n_2049040.html

It was a BIG storm.  We're quite a ways West from New Jersey!
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kingbee
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« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2012, 01:26:20 PM »

...
You are right that the location and population density made this a bad storm....

So true.  It is like the old saw about whether a tree falling in the forest makes any sound if there is no one in the forrest to hear the tree topple.  I wish to remind folks that if you didn't build or buy in a flood plain you won't get flooded.  Here is a hint.  Most but not all flood plains are located near water. 

On the tube today, one New Jersey resident said that his property was ONLY flooded TWICE in the past two years by storms, high winds with rain, and or by high tides.

EEGADS, what ever made him think that it wasn't going to happen again when you combined a storm, with rain, high wind, and high tides?

Sorry but here's your sign!
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BlueBee
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« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2012, 01:49:32 PM »

What "plains" are you going to mandate as flood plains Kingbee?  Those subject to a flood every 10 years? 20 years?  100 years?  500 years?

While I don’t disagree with you that building in a “flood plain” is not good public policy; it is REALITY.  Unfortunately we live in this REALITY and not some bee keepers utopia.  So given existing REALITY what do you do?  In Florida, building west of I-75 is discouraged by MUCH higher insurance premiums…if you can get insurance at all.  Of course if you can’t get insurance, you can’t get a mortgage and you can’t build.  Problem solved by the “free market”.  If you have the cash and want to take the full risk yourself, then you can still build.
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« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2012, 01:56:50 PM »

Here are a couple of links to pictures in the above two named European cities.  Please not the palm trees.
Are you telling us that this is what the local flora looks like up there in Central Michigan?

Professor, fire up your super computer and tell me what happens to those “palm trees” in Europe if the warm Gulf Stream shuts down?
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kingbee
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« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2012, 06:15:10 PM »

...Those who deny MMGW on political grounds are being very dishonest.  First they decide what they want the outcome of the argument to be....  Then they go looking for any explanation that suits that pre-determined outcome....
 


You are free to believe anything that you want to believe.  By all means do so.  I will support your right to be wrong as well as right.

However the only dogs in this fight who are trying to reach a predetermined outcome mostly by attacking those who doubt Man Made Global Warming-Cooling-Climate Change are the pro MMGW people who have the most to gain by steering government spending into areas that result in lifetime government employment or University tenure for themselves.

In his Military Industrial Complex Speech Ike said there were only TWO dangers facing our nation. 

The FIRST danger Ike named starting about minute 4 was the Military Industrial Industrial complex. 

The SECOND danger named and that Ike said was as dangerous as the Military Industrial Complex was the Educated Technological Elite mentioned starting about minute 6 and continuing until minute 12. The warning was about an "Educated Technological Elite" who in Ike's words was motivated by government cortracts, and the love of power and money, and who would drive government policy to enrich theirselves at the expense of the citizenry. 

Eisenhower Farewell Address (Full)


Ike warned us that these Educated Technological Elites would be motivated by government contracts and the allocation of Federal Funds.  This action is opposite of what is generally considered an "educated man."  So what we really have on the pro side of the MMGW debate is an "Educated Technological Elite" with their hand in the till like those who Ike warned us about. 

Liking any and all evidence of any real quantifiable Global Warming this is the only conclusion an educated man can reach. 

http://www.john-daly.com/history.htm
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