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Author Topic: Sandy  (Read 2844 times)
FRAMEshift
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« on: October 30, 2012, 05:00:12 PM »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/sandy-climate-change_b_2042871.html

The effects of warming on the climate system are coming home to roost.  With Sandy, MMGW has become deadly and it's clear what the future holds.  As I watched the reports of a hurricane merging with a cold front and an Arctic high pressure system to form a super storm, I felt like I was watching the film Day After Tomorrow .... but it was no longer fantasy.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 06:32:41 PM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 06:24:13 PM »

Nah, the wicked witch of the east caused it, just like Marie Laveau brought in Katrina.

I'm sure there are many other fantasies floating around, too, if we look hard enough.

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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 07:09:07 PM »

Like all floods, if you didn't build your house in a flood zone you would not be flooded out.  I almost got into a fight with a Texan in I think 1993 over a flood issue in the longstar state.  

I was in a diner watching a news broadcast about the Texas flood.  The guy being interviewed said the river hadn't been this high in 24 years.  That means that 24 years ago the river was this high or higher. When someone asked me if I thought it was right for the government to pay out Disaster Relief time and time again to the same communities.  I answered NO.  A fellow sitting behind me got up and tapped me on the shoulder.  "You're a fine one to talk," he told me.  Sitting here in the Tennessee Valley enjoying all the flood controll the Government has given you.  Never one at a loss for wise words I asked him if the Federal Government made him the same deal it gave the people in the Tennessee Vally if he would be happy.  "I sure will," he answered, "My home back in Texas is under 24 feet of water."

I told him that as soon as the water went down I wanted him to get everything he could save out of his drowned home and get his you know what off the land.  "What for", he asked?  Because the Federal Government is going to come in and bull doze your house down, build a dam and flood you out permanently.  His whole manner changed.  "I see what you mean" he said.

This is not the first Super or Perfect Storm to hit the North East.  And it won't be the last.  If folks didn't insist on living in a flood plain they would not be flooded.  Get use to it or get out of the way.  Hurricanes are the only SUSTAINABLE thing in nature.  If you got one.... you'll get another.

The truth is that no one even knew that Hurricanes were circular storms until the 1780s when one hit New England and a courier for General George Washington's Colonial Army rode through the damaged area and noticed that the trees on the East side of the storm's path fell one way and the those on the West side of the storm fell in another direction.  

Here are a few of the past New England Hurricanes:  Notice most of the worst occured long before MMGW was even a gleem in the eye of 'al' Al Gore.

For brevity I did not include any hurricanes for the 19th Century or 21st Century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_England_hurricanes



August 4, 1609
August 25, 1635- The Great Colonial Hurricane of 1635 struck Narragansett Bay as a possible category 4 or 5 hurricane. It killed 46+ people.
August 23, 1683- A tropical cyclone hit Connecticut and caused tremendous flooding.
October 29, 1693- Another tropical cyclone struck New England and caused flooding so great that new permanent inlets were created.

October 18, 1703
February 23, 1723
October 8, 1747
September 8, 1769
September 1775
August 13, 1778
November 1, 1778

A two-peat in one year
October 8–9, 1782
October 18–19, 1782

Only 4 years later another two-peat in the same month this time no less
September 24–25, 1785
August 19, 1788  


1904 August - Category 1/extratropical
1916 July - Category 1 -
1924 August - Category 2/3
1927 November 3-4
1934 September — New Haven Conn.
1936 September - Category 1
1938 September - New England Hurricane of 1938 - Strong Category 3. killed over 600 people and is considered to be the worst hurricane to strike New England in modern times.
1944 September- 15 - Great Atlantic Hurricane - Category 3 in southern New England. Eye over Conn. /
1950 September - Hurricane Dog - Major offshore hurricane — largest in size of all Atlantic storms, Very large, intense storm.
1953 September - Hurricane Carol  (The first) Category 1
1954 August - Hurricane Carol - (The Second) Category 3
1954 September - Hurricane Edna - a second Category 3 hurricane in only two weeks.

1959 July — Hurricane Cindy scrapes New England.
1960 September 12–13 - Hurricane Donna - Category 2/3 with peak gust of 140 mph at Blue Hill, Massachusetts,
1961 September - Hurricane Esther - Category 1 hurricane
1962 October - Hurricane Daisy - offshore- hurricane
1963 October - Hurricane Ginny -
1971 - Doria -
1972 - Carrie - as transitioning to extratropical storm
1976 August - Hurricane Belle
1985 September - Hurricane Gloria- Strong Category 1 -
1991 August - Hurricane Bob - Category 2. Winds gusted to Category 3 strength in southeastern Massachusetts. One of the smallest in area and yet most intense hurricanes to hit southern New England since 1938
1991 October - Hurricane Grace/Henri - offshore — Wind gusts to 77 mph (124 km/h) over Cape Cod as far west as Jamestown, Rhode Island.

Yes another two-peat.
1992-August 28 The remnants of Hurricane Andrew
1992-September 26 Remnants of Tropical Storm Danielle
1996- July — former Hurricane Bertha -
1996 September - Hurricane Edouard - Category 1
October 8, 1996 – The remnants of Tropical Storm Josephine  
July 26, 1997 – Tropical Storm Danny
1999 September 17–18 Hurricane Floyd –  

Looks like that Global Warming thing has been going on in New England for a long long time.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 12:12:53 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 07:14:08 PM »

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Looks like that Global Warming thing has been going on in New England for a long long time.

NO!!  you have it wrong.  history started 50 years ago!!  heretic...i renounce you!!!   evil
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 07:49:16 PM »

Frameshift, not sure this crowd listens to the huffingtonpost, or any real news for that matter Sad  Something is only true when Fox “News” says it is  Wink

I’m still skeptical, but the weather has been so extreme in Michigan this whole year, I guess it does give me pause.  We’ve had heat waves that are beyond anything we’ve ever had in modern times.  Unlike some beeks, I do keep an open mind  grin
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 08:18:31 PM by BlueBee » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2012, 08:04:16 PM »

  We’ve had heat waves that are beyond anything we’ve ever had in modern times.  Unlike some beeks, I do keep an open mind  grin

Lakoff is making the point that the "causal" relationship between MMGW and recent events is a systemic one.  As the entire system heats up, the probability of these weird events is much higher.  The heat and drought in Texas last year, Nebraska this year... and events like this hurricane/superstorm can be traced to systemic effects.  For example, the storm strengthened as it passed over the Gulf Stream, where waters were much warmer than normal.  And the hurricane was pulled west into the coast rather than moving eastward and out to sea as most hurricanes in the Atlantic do this time of year.  That was caused by a blocking pattern in the jet stream.  Such deep waves (and slower jet stream velocity) have been linked to the fact that more Arctic sea ice is melting in summer.  It's not a simple system and the cause and effect is not direct.  But to the people who study climate in detail, the people who really understand it best, the connections are clear.
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2012, 08:16:15 PM »

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But to the people who study climate in detail, the people who really understand it best, the connections are clear.

to some. others say no.

so we had a year of weather.  you want to make a thing of that, and ignore a history of drought, storms, etc.  i do believe you get your news from the huff!   grin

i just wait for Antarctica to be ice free again so that we can spread out onto and new (old) continent.  wonder what archeological mysteries we will uncover when we can live there again?? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 03:31:38 AM »

... not sure this crowd listens to the huffingtonpost... We’ve had heat waves that are beyond anything we’ve ever had in modern times.  Unlike some beeks, I do keep an open mind  


I also try to keep an open mind, and I do like to read the Huffington Post, I need the laughs.  BTW, Last Winter was cooler than average.  Yes, I know most of the lower 48 had above average temperatures.  That I freely admit. 

People are trying to make hay out of Man Made Global Warming by renaming Man Made Global Warming, Man Made Global Climate Change.  While last Winter, Spring, and Summer was wilting the lower 48, it was chilling the rest of the Northern Hemisphere with record cold.   Al Gore will simply kick the burden of proof further down the road and rename his nightmare, "Man Made Central Minnesota and Perhaps Parts of North Western Wisconsin Extra Climatic Data Averaging Mistake," or some other crap.  The Climate hasn't changed, the only thing to change is the proof that some demand to see before they will admit that the WEATHER is still doing what the WEATHER has always done, CHANGE, then CHANGE again, and finally CHANGE somemore before returning to the median.

That's what I like about you BB.  You are one of the few Lefties I have ever corresponded with that uses his head, most are just in over theirs'.       
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 07:14:46 AM »

Yes, I read the huff. I've always liked jokes. Even the sick ones.

I guess MMGW caused the midwest dust storms of the '30's, too. WOW! It is even retroactive.
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 11:45:09 AM »

...
I guess MMGW caused the midwest dust storms of the '30's, too. WOW! It is even retroactive.

If it would help him pick your pants pocket, Al Gore would claim that Man Made Global Warming (a.k.a. Climate Change) is interplanetary.  I mean look, what happened to the water on Mars?  It had to go somewhere, right?  That means (To Gore) that we sinful people here on Earth destroyed the climate as well as the advanced beautiful civilization on the planet Mars when we Earthlings discovered that if we rubbed two sticks together long enough, we could make fire.  

I can hear it now. (Assuming the cadence and manner of a Southern revivalist preacher to deep in his cups) "You carbon stained, greedy, uncaring, fire worshiping, selfish, right wing reactionary Earthlings, REPENT!!!  IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT'S GREEN and HOLY, REPENT I COMMAND YOU!!!  Ya'll done boiled poor old Mars' water plum away like it was left a-standing in an unattended tea kettle on a hot stove ...."
  
Global Warming IS more pernicious than the Military Industrial Complex that President Eisenhower warned us about in 1961. Man Made Global Climate Change/Warming is designed not only to replace Juedao-Christian values but MMGW/CC is also designed to enrich and empower an elite cadre of high priest and priestest (like Al Gore) whose life's goal and dream is to rule over the Earth and the sinful Earthlings living here for the common good of the entire Universe.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 03:56:33 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 12:20:12 PM »

... i just wait for Antarctica to be ice free again so that we can spread out onto and new (old) continent...  


I am afraid that it ain't happening, at least not while there are flesh and blood humans on this planet.  The Antarctic ice sheet is growing in both extent as well as in thickness.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/forget-the-melting-arctic-the-sea-ice-in-antarctica-is-growing-skeptics-say-15032

                                 "Forget the Melting Arctic, Sea Ice in Antarctica is Growing!
                                   Published: September 30th, 2012"
Less you read the link and think that I am wrong, remember that the Antarctic Continent is a desert, one of the driest places on Earth for NEW rain or snow fall, and expanding sea ice cools, condenses and wrings out atmospheric moisture before it has a chance to fall as new snow over land.  Besides, It's MAN MADE GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE/WARMING we are speaking of, not short term local rainfall variation.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 12:35:55 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 12:44:15 PM »

oops
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 01:08:01 PM »

i just wait for Antarctica to be ice free again so that we can spread out onto and new (old) continent.  wonder what archeological mysteries we will uncover when we can live there again??  
Maybe an old civilization of bee keepers whom refused to listen to facts?  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 01:18:02 PM »

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Maybe an old civilization of bee keepers whom refused to listen to facts?

what facts?  the ones that warn that climates change?  that's one that i will agree with.  they do indeed change, and there are cycles to the climate changes also. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 05:59:48 PM »

Beyond what we've seen in modern times.....
Even 300 years in the scope of time is a mere grain of sand in an hourglass. With man being present or not the climate will be cyclical in nature.Hurricanes are natures way of redistributing heat and some of the heat energy convected to the upper reaches of the atmosphere does radiate out to space never to be heating the planet again.
And you really are not portraying Huffington as objective? 
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2012, 11:39:50 PM »

You are right buzzbee, change is normal.  I’m still a little skeptical of what is warming the climate, but something is.  This is especially noticeable at the northern latitudes.  We had spells of much higher than ever imagined weather this year in Michigan; I’m keeping an open mind that it could be manmade.  You make a good point about hurricanes dissipating heat too.  The massive size of the cloud cover with this one would also reflect more of the Suns incoming rays and have a net negative effect on temperatures.  Luckily there is some negative feedback loops in the climate control system.
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2012, 03:33:30 PM »

...
The heat and drought in Texas ...  and events like this hurricane/superstorm can be traced to systemic effects...

I would say that a majority of the scientist supposedly in the tank for MMGW are not even Climatologist.  A lot of them are in fields that have NOTHING to do with ANY type of Earth Science study.  Many climatologist who DOUBT MMGW have also told about finding their names on the list of scientist that have supposedly ENDORSED MMGW and ultimately having to take legal action to get their names REMOVED from the list of scientist endorsing MMGW.

Yep, the effects of MMGW were so strong that it knocked the Sun and the Moon out of their normal orbits and realigned both the Sun's and the Moon's gravitational fields in relation to the Earth to exacerbate the effects of Hurricane Sandy by coronating  Hurricane Sandy's winds and arrival time with high tide resulting in increased coastal flooding.  OMG we're doomed!!!  grin Kiss shocked evil
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 03:51:31 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2012, 05:16:54 PM »

Beyond what we've seen in modern times.....
Even 300 years in the scope of time is a mere grain of sand in an hourglass. With man being present or not the climate will be cyclical in nature.Hurricanes are natures way of redistributing heat and some of the heat energy convected to the upper reaches of the atmosphere does radiate out to space never to be heating the planet again.
And you really are not portraying Huffington as objective? 
Well done Buzzbee, 10 out of 10 and you didn't take 2 pages to say it !!!
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« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2012, 06:01:21 PM »

Hurricanes are natures way of redistributing heat and some of the heat energy convected to the upper reaches of the atmosphere does radiate out to space never to be heating the planet again.

Yes, you are right about this, but I'm not sure why this makes you feel safer.  The atmosphere is in dynamic equilibrium.  Higher CO2 traps more solar radiation and raises the mean temperature of the Earth.  The temperature will keep rising until there are enough mechanisms triggered to balance the heat flow.  The Earth will continue to warm and  hurricanes will continue to become more severe until their radiation to space (and other mechanisms) get rid of the increased heat.  But you might not like the equilibrium point.

This is not a political issue to me.  I would be much happier if you were correct.  But I don't think you are.  It takes a long time (on a human time scale) for the CO2 that's emitted to be taken up by the oceans and converted to carbonates.  So it's a cumulative thing.  It's not just the carbon emitted today that traps heat...  but also the carbon that was emitted last year and 10 years ago.  Even if we stopped emitting all CO2 today, the Earth would continue to get hotter and hotter for many years.  So if you have any doubts at all about your conclusions, you should be VERY worried about the possible consequences.

And if you do view this through a political lens,  it still makes sense to stop burning fossil fuels.  Hydrocarbons from oil and coal are much more valuable as chemical feedstocks than as fuel.  Burning long chain molecules for fuel is foolish because it will take far more energy in the future to create those needed molecules.  When sun, wind, and wave energy is widely and cheaply available... and when moving away from dependence on foreign oil is a national security issue and an environmental issue... it makes perfect sense to stop emitting CO2 even if you don't believe in MMGW.

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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2012, 06:59:03 PM »

I won't argue climate change. It is 4 days without power and just today got heat. All food is spoiled and gas station lines miles long here.

10 miles away is devastated thousand of homes on the shore and millions like us without power for likely a week longer from today.

Best wishes all.
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2012, 07:10:21 PM »

Sorry to hear about your situation and all the destruction near you.  Hopefully the whole country will get it's act together to provide the help you need. 

I understand that electrical workers and equipment are being sent from as far away as California. 
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2012, 07:14:02 PM »

I can't get an appt. with our FPL Engineer until the 13th because everyone else in his office is up in NJ.

Scott
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2012, 07:18:26 PM »

I feel for you John. We were without power or water for 28 days after Charlie nailed us in '04. Bathed in a friends pool and used our little colman camp stove to cook. Glad to know y'all are ok though!

Scott
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2012, 07:29:38 PM »

The photos and video are unbelievable; they always are after a major storm surge.  Sure hope the best for NJ, it’s going to be tough for a lot of people.  At least in FL when we lost power, we didn’t have to worry about freezing to death.  Michigan also sent lineman east to help with the power, but it takes a lot of time to repair that much damage.
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 10:18:38 PM »

wondered how you were doing.  was hoping you'd check in and let us know.  glad the power is back on.  in the grand scheme of things, spoiled food is not so bad. i bet no fuel sucks.  hang in.  things always get better if you are patient.
sorry, need to read the screen with reading glasses.  sorry no power sad
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 10:49:48 AM »

Sorry to hear about your situation and all the destruction near you.  Hopefully the whole country will get it's act together to provide the help you need.  

I understand that electrical workers and equipment are being sent from as far away as California.  

Our local radio station said the electrical workers in NJ wouldn't let the non union crews from AL help restore electricity because they were not union.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 03:33:42 PM by sterling » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2012, 01:32:23 PM »

heard that also.  i think that if you turn away help, you should sit in the dark and enjoy it.  this is one of the reasons i hate urban  disasters and am not a fan of the east coast. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2012, 03:36:56 PM »

With all the stuff going on in New York City they are still going to run the marathon. Can you believe it.
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2012, 07:21:10 PM »

Day 5. No power until Wednesday next week. Much power around us is restored but 300 homes where I am are completely blacked out.

Propane ventless heater doing magic and it is amazing how well you see with a few candles after a while.

What food we have is in a borrowed ice chest filled with frozen water bottles.

Gasoline is not as bad to get here s it was with power restored. North of here mile long lines is common.

I just get to check in in my iPod when at a hotspot at work. I'll be in touch.
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2012, 06:31:59 PM »

Forwarded post from John(Beemaster):

Thought I'd try writing a longer post and cut and paste it when I got wifi at work (which I get for just a few minutes while making rounds to boiler rooms on my base).

Our electric company told me that Wednesday we should have power restored which will be 9 days in a very dark residential neighborhood of 300 or so homes. I'm home now listening to a podcast as I type this. So glad I can recharge cellphones and iPod at work as well as refreeze water bottles for the cooler. We really don't have much fridge food in the cooler but want to keep it ready so when we get something we have a way to chill it.

Most of the food stores still are short on everything. Many were out of power or on generators for days. Lots if stuff was tossed for safety reasons.

I have a few hundred photos from www.app.com our area newspaper website - I took pics of the screen off my work computer to show my wife. These are the first images she has seen.

When Geoff from Australia visited here we went to the boardwalk in Seaside which is now gone along with hundreds of destroyed million dollar homes to rental bungalows.

I don't miss Internet or tv too much but I do miss movies and we just started watching the series Alphas and there's about 15 episodes to catch up with. We have one powerful FM radio talk station that keeps us informed as well as all the big AM stations in NYC too.

Out of my 11 coworkers in 9 different towns over a 30 mile area, 1 has power, 3 on generator and the rest roughing it.

My friend Mike and his brother waded in 4ft high water pulling a canoe filled with what they could save from their parents home which is destroyed. In that town now curfew from 7-5 is in place and police warn looters (they come in by boat) will be shot.

I think most of you have seen our governor Chris Cristie by now if you have followed this hurricane Sandy at all. He is likely a presidential candidate in 2016. He is a republican gov in a blue state and was begged to run this time. He loves nj and takes no crap. He is a real heavy guy that is a true no BS leader. Times like this you need someone tough and I believe none are tougher.

So I write this by candlelight at midnight Saturday morning not knowing what to say other than be thankful we lost nothing but some inconveniences while others gave nothing.

It gets old hearing though about people who live on the coasts deserve what they get. And same with earthquake zones, tornado alley and so on.

One thing most people overlook is NJ is the most densely populated state with nearly 7500 per square mile. This huge population is a real issue when talking still 3 million homes in NYC and NJ still without power.

Nothing close to this has happened here in recorded history although we have had hurricanes come this way just as we have tornadoes and wild fires. A few really mild earthquakes too.

No where is really safe and I think it sick anyone believes people deserve what they get. That is sick.

Finally about climate change. I respect everyone's opinion but I believe and always will it is cyclical and likely has happened thousands of times and will thousand more.

We just happen to be here and now and observing it. Have we contributed, I would say sure but I also believe Earth is a living entity that can and does cure itself by balancing whatever it needs too.

If humans get to be too much we will see a plague like never before with maybe a billion dead. Whatever it takes.

I wish as I sit humbled by Mother Earths mighty power and know that the GLOBAL WARMISTS couldn't sell that crap in a bag, so it became climate change. But I'm fairly curtain the majority of those mentioned in this paragraph are LIBERALS dressed in CENTRISTS clothing.

I also wish rathe :angel:r than (or along with gender) we had a little red or blue dot next to members willing to state their leanings - a white dot for those more in the middle. Maybe a left or right arrow lol.

But I this climate change opinions do a pretty good job of doing this already.

Gonna save my battery for listening to a zombie podcast radio play that is pretty good - it's called WE'RE ALIVE and entertaining except it is cut into 20 minute pieces with brief commercials.

Write you all again soon.

Ps. Tapatalk was not working so I am posting on the tiny web page. Ken could you repost this in the other Sandy topics. Thanks to all following. It felt good although tedious typing this out on the iPod. But I needed to do it. Peace. 
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2012, 09:49:55 PM »

Forwarded post from John(Beemaster):

No where is really safe and I think it sick anyone believes people deserve what they get. That is sick.

I wouldn't say anyone deserves what has happened to NJ, NY.  But we have to learn from history.  I felt that way in 1993 when the Mississippi River flooded and destroyed so many homes and businesses from Iowa to Mississippi.  The problem was that many of those homes had been flooded out before.  They just collect their federal flood insurance payments and rebuild in the same place... over and over.   There will be more hurricanes in Jersey.   As tragic as this disaster is,  it is also an opportunity to rebuild sensibly.  That means moving the population back away from the coast and building on stilts. My opinion is that no house that was severely damaged by this storm should be rebuilt in the same place and with the same design as it had before. (I thought the same thing about New Orleans).  Gov.  Christie has already asked Obama to bring in the Army Corps.  to help the state  to rebuild, including some VERY effective stabilized dunes that protected areas where the Corp was in charge of the beach.
Quote

Finally about climate change. I respect everyone's opinion but I believe and always will it is cyclical and likely has happened thousands of times and will thousand more....

If humans get to be too much we will see a plague like never before with maybe a billion dead. Whatever it takes.
You are right but that's not much comfort.  Yes the Earth will survive our folly.  Many species will survive, probably including humans.  But civilization may not survive if we don't make serious changes.
Quote

I wish as I sit humbled by Mother Earths mighty power and know that the GLOBAL WARMISTS couldn't sell that crap in a bag, so it became climate change. But I'm fairly curtain the majority of those mentioned in this paragraph are LIBERALS dressed in CENTRISTS clothing.
John, you can color my dot VERY LIBERAL but that's not why I think MMGW is real. As I said earlier, this is not a political issue for me.  I'm a biochemist with a decent understanding of physics.  I've been reading about CO2 induced warming since 1980... an article in Scientific American.  It had NO political connotations.  It was raised as a scientific issue.  If fact, there are few issues in science that are so obviously true as this.  It's like falling off a log obvious.

As to why the name was changed from Global Warming to Climate Change, that is because scientists are not very good politicians.  They thought that the right wing was confused about the fact that trapped heat can give rise to extremes in both directions... in all directions.  For example, the high pressure over Greenland that forced Sandy to turn west was caused (probability increased by)  the melt of Arctic sea ice this summer.  We live on a little ball and everything is interconnected.  That includes episodes of extreme cold caused by global warming.  So the scientists and some accommodating members of the press tried to re-package it in language that would include all extreme events.  But to those who oppose the idea of MMGW on political grounds, that made zero difference.  They were determined NOT to understand, regardless of the language used.

Those who deny MMGW on political grounds are being very dishonest.  First they decide what they want the outcome of the argument to be.  Then they go looking for any explanation that suits that pre-determined outcome.  As I said earlier, I would be delighted to believe that this is not an instance of man changing the climate to his own great detriment.  But I don't.
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2012, 10:43:54 PM »

Thoughts and prayers are with you. 
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2012, 10:48:17 AM »

Like all floods, if you didn't build your house in a flood zone you would not be flooded out.  I almost got into a fight with a Texan in I think 1993 over a flood issue in the longstar state.
I enjoy all the debate and discussion about the weather.  One thing I do know is that the correct nickname is "The Lone Star State".  From living down here on the Gulf Coast for all of my 44 years, I have some experience with hurricanes (although not an anywhere close to an expert).  Before it made landfall, the weather folks were all like kids hopped up on Halloween candy with the possibility of a "Super Storm". They were talking about 95 mph winds like they were never seen before.  It was a category 1 storm.  Now I am  not trying do diminish the effects that all of our fellow Americans are going through in the aftermath.  Like Kathy, I have gone in and  volunteered in the wake of these storms the help people put their lives and homes back together.  What made this so bad IMO is that it made landfall in one of the worst geographically shaped places it could have and in one of the most densely populated areas of our country.  When Rita hit us a few years back, we were without power for over 2 weeks.  Blazing heat and cleanup made it a great challenge.  I was glad that I was in the country where resources are available,(squirrels, deer, water etc.) My point is that the storm was not as big and bad as they are making it out to be, it just hit in a very bad location.
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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2012, 12:39:00 PM »

My point is that the storm was not as big and bad as they are making it out to be, it just hit in a very bad location.


You are right that the location and population density made this a bad storm. Other factors that made it worse were the synchronization with the full moon tide and the angle at which the storm approached the coast which made the storm surge much higher.  I know you are focused on the wind speed as an indicator of the strength of the storm.  The power of the wind at a particular point is directly related to wind speed, but the overall strength of the storm including not just wind speed but also the geographical area that is affected, is better measured by how low the barometric pressure goes.

Sandy's strength, as indicated by barometric pressure just before landfall, set a record. The lower the pressure, the stronger the storm.

When hurricane hunter aircraft measured its central pressure at 940 millibars -- 27.76 inches -- Monday afternoon, it was the lowest barometric reading ever recorded for an Atlantic storm to make landfall north of Cape Hatteras, North Carolina. The previous record holder was the 1938 "Long Island Express" Hurricane, which dropped as low as 946 millibars.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/30/us/sandy-records/index.html

So I'm saying that this was a very powerful storm in terms of it's total energy.  If Sandy had tightened down into a storm the size of Rita, the wind speeds would have been much higher.
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2012, 01:01:02 PM »

... change is normal.  I’m still a little skeptical of what is warming the climate, but something is.  This is especially noticeable at the northern latitudes....  


You are correct.  That is why the temperatures were much colder last winter in the real NORTHERN latitudes you mentioned.  BTW, Central Michigan is not in a "NORHERN" latitudes [sic].  I consider Lansing, Michigan as the quiescently center of Michigan.  the latitude of Lansing, Michigan is 42.7325°N.  This fixes Central Michigan about smack dab half way between Marcells, France and Rome, Italy.

Here are a couple of links to pictures in the above two named European cities.  Please not the palm trees.
Are you telling us that this is what the local flora looks like up there in Central Michigan?
The first link is for Marcells, France.

http://www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/image/862-03887775/Marseille-Provence-France;-A-cafe-amidst-building-and-palm-trees

The second link is for Saint Peter's which is smack dab in the middle of Rome.
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/marite2008/3755573919/

OK BB, are those of you shivering in those (LOL) Northern Latitudes of Central Michigan too hot?  Are the people sweltering in the Northern latitudes of Marcelle, France or Rome, Italy too cold?  Is it the other way around?Huh   huh  It has to be one or the other because this is the endgame of all the leftist policy arguments that I have heard in my lifetime.  There arguments are always about spreading human misery equally among all the Earth's population and the Leftist policies are never about making life better for anyone.  

So how much heat will the Utopian left tax away from France and Italy to make Michigan warm enough to grow palm trees?  Or is Michigan going to transport their colder local climate to Southern Europe and teach the Spanish how to play ice hockey instead of grow olives?  You know, you could move lock, stock, and barrel to Sardinia and teach the locals how to fish through holes in the ice!  These last two options BTW would make Central Michigan much colder which you seem to think is NORMAL if not preferable.  But you can not nor at this time can anyone else point to any long term definitive warming trend anywhere on Earth, not one!  
  
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2012, 01:06:12 PM »

So I'm saying that this was a very powerful storm in terms of it's total energy.

From the Huff:  “Wave heights out in the middle of lake (Michigan) reached 20 feet, short of the 23 foot record set last year by a strong storm pushing down from Canada.  The difference this time is the winds are from the edges of what had been a tropical storm, one vast enough to reach hundreds of miles inland.”  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/31/lake-michigan-waves-2012-_n_2049040.html

It was a BIG storm.  We're quite a ways West from New Jersey!
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« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2012, 01:26:20 PM »

...
You are right that the location and population density made this a bad storm....

So true.  It is like the old saw about whether a tree falling in the forest makes any sound if there is no one in the forrest to hear the tree topple.  I wish to remind folks that if you didn't build or buy in a flood plain you won't get flooded.  Here is a hint.  Most but not all flood plains are located near water. 

On the tube today, one New Jersey resident said that his property was ONLY flooded TWICE in the past two years by storms, high winds with rain, and or by high tides.

EEGADS, what ever made him think that it wasn't going to happen again when you combined a storm, with rain, high wind, and high tides?

Sorry but here's your sign!
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« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2012, 01:49:32 PM »

What "plains" are you going to mandate as flood plains Kingbee?  Those subject to a flood every 10 years? 20 years?  100 years?  500 years?

While I don’t disagree with you that building in a “flood plain” is not good public policy; it is REALITY.  Unfortunately we live in this REALITY and not some bee keepers utopia.  So given existing REALITY what do you do?  In Florida, building west of I-75 is discouraged by MUCH higher insurance premiums…if you can get insurance at all.  Of course if you can’t get insurance, you can’t get a mortgage and you can’t build.  Problem solved by the “free market”.  If you have the cash and want to take the full risk yourself, then you can still build.
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« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2012, 01:56:50 PM »

Here are a couple of links to pictures in the above two named European cities.  Please not the palm trees.
Are you telling us that this is what the local flora looks like up there in Central Michigan?

Professor, fire up your super computer and tell me what happens to those “palm trees” in Europe if the warm Gulf Stream shuts down?
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« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2012, 06:15:10 PM »

...Those who deny MMGW on political grounds are being very dishonest.  First they decide what they want the outcome of the argument to be....  Then they go looking for any explanation that suits that pre-determined outcome....
 


You are free to believe anything that you want to believe.  By all means do so.  I will support your right to be wrong as well as right.

However the only dogs in this fight who are trying to reach a predetermined outcome mostly by attacking those who doubt Man Made Global Warming-Cooling-Climate Change are the pro MMGW people who have the most to gain by steering government spending into areas that result in lifetime government employment or University tenure for themselves.

In his Military Industrial Complex Speech Ike said there were only TWO dangers facing our nation. 

The FIRST danger Ike named starting about minute 4 was the Military Industrial Industrial complex. 

The SECOND danger named and that Ike said was as dangerous as the Military Industrial Complex was the Educated Technological Elite mentioned starting about minute 6 and continuing until minute 12. The warning was about an "Educated Technological Elite" who in Ike's words was motivated by government cortracts, and the love of power and money, and who would drive government policy to enrich theirselves at the expense of the citizenry. 

Eisenhower Farewell Address (Full)


Ike warned us that these Educated Technological Elites would be motivated by government contracts and the allocation of Federal Funds.  This action is opposite of what is generally considered an "educated man."  So what we really have on the pro side of the MMGW debate is an "Educated Technological Elite" with their hand in the till like those who Ike warned us about. 

Liking any and all evidence of any real quantifiable Global Warming this is the only conclusion an educated man can reach. 

http://www.john-daly.com/history.htm
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