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Author Topic: Foundation : wax w/no hexs ?  (Read 4869 times)
Maryland Beekeeper
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« on: October 29, 2012, 04:23:57 PM »

Anyone gone there yet ? I was thinking perhaps a cookie sheet, lay wires across and pour, install in framed TB.
Cheers,
Drew
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Joe D
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 10:12:24 AM »

I have made frames, mainly because I had a cut out and thought it would be easier to tie into than just top bars.  I don't think I would go far enough to make foundation.   If  you were going to do that wouldn't it be easier to change hive shape to accommodate lang frames and then they would fit into an extractor.  But if you want to go for it.  Good luck to you and your bees.



Joe
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Maryland Beekeeper
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 01:27:34 PM »

I am thinking foundation more for prevention of crosscomb and perhaps a quicker buildup. I am running Perone type prototypes and am looking to achieve the 36-48" high, uninterrupted comb I am finding in cutouts.
Cheers,
Drew
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T Beek
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2012, 08:25:50 AM »

Seems like a lot of work.

I've been 80-90% foundationless since 2007 now and have noticed little to minimal "slowed'  drawing of wax by my bees or Spring build up.  

Frequent inspections (and having lots of available naturally drawn frames or top bars) are the primary requirement for preventing cross-comb catastrophe's with a foundationless system.  

In rare cases I'll use foundation when I don't have a spare frame of natural comb, but its not something I want to introduce to my colonies so I mark them and remove asap.  They're just a tool for manipulating honeybees to my needs rather than their desires (to build beautiful wavy, uneven comb)

I have had some limited success 'warming' broken comb enough to melt it and glue/tie up inside a frame or to a top bar.
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Maryland Beekeeper
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 09:39:16 AM »

Interesting thanks. Bit of trouble but any little advantage in getting a colony to sustainable strength with all the SHB we have around here would be worth it.
Cheers,
Drew
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 11:02:43 AM »

The bees will draw it, but much slower than foundation and much much slower than foundationless.  The  sheets when poured and not pressed (like foundation is pressed) are very tough and hard for the bees to work with plus they don't resemble comb.  Since they will build foundationless faster and it is much less work, I would do foundationless...
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Michael Bush
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Maryland Beekeeper
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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 11:47:18 AM »

That is what I was curious about thanks. Just saw the way the Slovenians do it with the AZ hive, probably do similar.
Cheers,
Drew
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little john
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 04:01:58 PM »

The bees will draw it, but much slower than foundation and much much slower than foundationless.  The  sheets when poured and not pressed (like foundation is pressed) are very tough and hard for the bees to work with plus they don't resemble comb.  Since they will build foundationless faster and it is much less work, I would do foundationless...


But that's not what some researchers have found. A preference was shown by the bees for drawing comb on 'thin non-embossed sheets' over 'thick non-embossed sheets' or 'embossed foundation'.
Interestingly, the comb mid-rib was always the same thickness regardless of the thickness of the wax sheet the bees started with - demonstrating that wax can be (and often is) easily re-cycled within the hive.

Regret I can't post a link to these results as the powers that be won't let me (not enough posts) - and I've been threatened with expulsion if I circumvent the prohibition notice in any way ...

But - if anyone feels suitably motivated ...

Take yourself off to the beesfordevelopment dot org site, then do a site search for 'low cost foundation' by Aidoo and Paxton.  The same search terms entered into Google will also return that document, which is a .pdf file.

Hope you find it of interest.

LJ


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Maryland Beekeeper
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 07:10:41 PM »

very interesting, thanks. I enjoy re-inventing mouse traps Smiley Tried almost a dozen different variations on TB's this season, probably try @ least half that many next year. As long as I'm learning I'm happy  Smiley
Cheers,
Drew
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BlueBee
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 03:13:51 AM »

T Beek has some good advice about foundationless.  I do have foundationless frames in some of my hives and I hate them because if you don’t pay close attention to the hives on a regular basis you just end up with a total mess.  Same thing with the PF frames in my bee yard.  You gotta watch them like a hawk too.  At least with the PF frames, they can be fixed pretty easily.  My bees will often start building perpendicular to the PF frames!  Note:  I’m not really bashing the PF frames, I have many and will buy more; they just require a little more attention IMO.

Drew, if I were building a hive with the massive size of combs you are trying to achieve, I would go with plastic foundation.  Use multiple sheets of the stuff to get to the size of frame you want.  The plastic gives the frames the structure they are going to need to support that much comb.  You just risk wasting too much of the bees work if you try to make that much comb foundationless AND removable.  My 14.5” jumbo frames are constructed of 2 pieces of plastic foundation and make for very mechanically sound jumbo frames.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 01:50:50 PM »

If you want to try it, the traditional way is to soak a board in brine and then dip it in wax.  Peel the sheets off.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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weldingfreak6010
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 10:35:05 PM »

Thanks for that, look up on YouTube from fineshooter titled
 MAKING WAX=FOUNDATION=CHEAP great video
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Fox Creek
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2013, 03:48:28 PM »

I have not experienced any problems with my bees building foundationless comb. I have four hives and about half of my frames are now foundationless. I use the paint stick in the groove method. I think the reason I have had success in this, is because I always put the foundationless frame between built comb frames. Seems to work as a guide for the bees.
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bailey
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2013, 08:16:20 AM »

I went foundationless a few years back.  I only drop empties between 2 drawn combs.  Have very little cross comb. 
I even do this in the supers and get loads of new super comb every year. 
MmY colonies have been doing much better and building much stronger since I started going foundationless.
And I won't ever make queens from commercial foundation frames.  I think all the contaminants in the foundation is not good for bees, especially queens!
Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.
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