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Author Topic: Federal Benefit Payment checks. A.K.A. Drawing your pennys.  (Read 3331 times)
luvin honey
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 04:06:09 PM »

And I asked for higher taxes where? I thought it was conservative thinking that said if you want something, you have to pay for it. Responsible fiscality and all that.

I think it would be awesome (if unrealistic) to clean up a lot of government programs and systems, get rid of the waste, and more fully fund that which needs funding. Improve education, expand access to healthcare, clean up the environment, build up a rainy day account. But that's just my dream, and probably most of our dreams.
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 04:10:23 PM »

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And I asked for higher taxes where?

paying SSI tax on all income would be one.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 04:33:22 PM »

How about just being taxed on "all" income?  The wealthy will never let it happen.

I just looked, my VA Pension, my State and Federal Employment Pensions and at Least one dividend Check all call their payments "benefits."  

Personally I prefer No "income" tax at all, and a move toward a Georgist "Single Tax" system (Like Denmark) that would be equally fair to all living beings.
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 06:36:41 PM »

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How about just being taxed on "all" income?  The wealthy will never let it happen.

that's not so.  it's a proposal that has been around, mainly on the right, for many years.  i certainly support it.  the left will not support it.  they want exclusions for to many things.  they would not tax SSI, welfare, low income, etc.  i would tax it all.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2012, 08:25:14 PM »

Here's the thing--The more you tax SSI, low-income earners, welfare recipients, etc., the more likely they are to need the very programs you're providing them. Or those on the fringes (not yet needing them) move into the needy category.

For example, when DH and I were newly married and VERY low income earners, had we been taxed at a higher rate, it's possible we could have moved (if we had no family support) into a category of employees needing govt assistance. By not taxing our meager income much, we were able to stay self sufficient. We didn't contribute a ton of tax $, but we also used no tax $ in the form of assistance.

So, tax those who can afford it and who won't come to need govt assistance by being taxed. Why tax those already needy or borderline needy?
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2012, 08:57:30 PM »

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So, tax those who can afford it and who won't come to need govt assistance by being taxed. Why tax those already needy or borderline needy?

because people who have no skin in the game don't care how the game is played.  they are just fine with obama phones, and "stimulus" because it's all being done with others money.  why pay any attention to what is being done as long as it's not costing you anything?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2012, 09:00:54 PM »

So, even if that taxation sent them from gainfully employed to gainfully employed and needing assistance, you would do it to teach them responsibility and civic duty?

I've worked my way up a bit the economic ladder from our nearly nontaxed days. I didn't need anything more than my own independent human nature to desire more than a meager income.

Now that we're property owners, I do pay more attention to what's going on in our schools. Hard to tell what came first--school-aged children or our first property tax bills...
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
T Beek
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 11:08:56 AM »

Under a Georgist "single Tax" system all citizens would receive an "equal" share dividend, effectively wiping out the so-called Welfare system some so desperately love to hate around here, that is until they need something  rolleyes 

For a nearby example see Alaska and the citzen dividend provided to all Alaskans from Big Oil.  For more, see Denmark and on and on..........There are many.

Those too lazy to make something of themselves would NOT be dependant on anything (whether the government, their friends or neighbors) more than their "equal" share of the Single Tax. 

A far cry from the way we currently allow the "self-appropriators" of our society to reap the majority of the rewards and riches (profits).

Those with ambition could still make a killing (get rich) by their extraction of "our" planets resources, including plants, minerals (oil, coal, gas, gold, copper..etc) and human.

Movement toward a "single tax" system is the only way to make modern life on Earth an equitable or fair system.  If there's another I'm not aware of it.

AGAIN:  The wealthy will NEVER allow it unless "We the People" demand it and as long as we stay divided over petty nonsensical issues........ THEY WIN. 

There are very twisted and sinister reasons why we are not taught Georgist economics in any university in America.
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 11:55:39 AM »

the reason your single tax system would never happen is that we are taxed to feed the government.  in addition, you have to have revenue sources = to the amount you wish to redistribute.  AK works because they have oil.  if you are going to do it on a national level, i'm not sure you can cover 300 million people that way.  Denmark is a pretty tiny country.  their tax system is the = of a tax system in a pretty small state. 


Quote
Movement toward a "single tax" system is the only way to make modern life on Earth an equitable or fair system.

there is a difference between equitable and fair.  it's pretty easy to make things equitable but in the process, fairness goes out the door.  your version of equitable is still redistribution.  redistribution, no matter how you dress it, is theft of the work and profit of one, for the benefit of another.   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bluegrass
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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 12:10:56 PM »

When I see that FICA tax come out of my check I smile because I know that money is paying the bills of my wife's 90 year old grandfather who has no other retirement plan, worked 60 years farming to feed 5 kids and had nothing left over for retirement.

I have other plans for retirement. Roths, property, investments.... What year was the Flemming V nestor ruling that stated that FICA was a tax and just because you pay in does not entitle you to a benefit payment? 1960? I think we should all have a grasp on that reality by now.

I have a choice... I can move out of the country if I don't like the tax system... But my impression is that they are worse in most other places... that have cars, running water and electricity.
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Sugarbush Bees
T Beek
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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2012, 01:28:10 PM »

No being is more 'entitled' to the wealth of the Earth than any other being.  That's the FIRST entitlement that needs adjusting, long before any others discussed these days.

The air, the water AND the land (what's above and below) belong to all inhabitants. 

What we have now is a direct consequense of rampent greed and it is "greed" that we feed Kathyp, not governments (or even people, really), unless you mean our governments feed greed too.  Likely not the same way as I do though.

There is no rational argument against the "Single Tax" those who try, don't know Henry George and don't know the Single Tax (or don't want to know).
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T Beek
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« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2012, 01:47:03 PM »

Several single tax theorists/economists have proclaimed that "if" the entire planet embraced a "single tax" system it would provide a monthly dividend between $2-5,000 to every man, woman and child on Earth.   

The alternative (what we have now) is endless despair, poverty and War, which fits the profile we've been handed by our Slave Masters who manipulate and encourage our divisions, divisions that when looking at the big picture, mean little to nothing to the masses.

That should give you some idea how much is 'stolen' from us on a regular basis by the "self-appropriators" among us.

Industrialist's exploit considerably more than just oil and currently reap a disgustingly criminal and unequal portion of the profits that rightfully could/should be shared by all, effectively ending poverty. 

Why do you think its called "filthy" rich?
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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2012, 04:42:36 PM »

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No being is more 'entitled' to the wealth of the Earth than any other being.

i know i asked this before and i know i didn't get an answer, but hope spring eternal.....how do you see this being implemented?  can you kind of give me a sketch of what kind of government, or oversight, etc. and who would see to it that all the earth was fairly shared and all the people fairly rewarded?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2012, 08:29:37 AM »

Oh contrare, I did answer you Kathyp, but it confused you apparently.

Some would call it EVOLUTION.  Some might call it REVOLUTION.  

Clear enough?  I like keeping things simple, thanks for the opportunity.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 09:51:48 AM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2012, 06:31:23 PM »

no, i think you kept telling me to look it up.  maybe i am confusing you.  any plan needs some structure.  i'd like to know the structure of what you are proposing.  how do you take money.  how do you redistribute money.  who controls what?  how do you choose who will be in charge of all this redistribution.

design me a kingdom and tell me how it's ruled.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2012, 09:59:36 AM »

Why should I write a book (s) that have already been written?

"Those who refuse to educate themselves have no one to blame but themselves"

SEE: HENRY GEORGE
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 10:56:54 AM by T Beek » Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
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