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Author Topic: We in USA .....need not insulation  (Read 6897 times)

Offline Finski

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2012, 09:22:01 AM »
My bees survival rate speaks for itself

Look Beek. I have wintered my bees 50 years without your l help.

Can't you understand that if a human have not learned things in 50 y what to do, perhaps ne does not need that knowledge.

A human learn if he needs that skill. Like you, you have learned all. Nothing to get any more. Some leanr things in 5 years and some in 50 years.

Beekeeping is not so difficult that you do not learn it in 5 years.

 

You are a funny man Fin.

And you are like street dog allways biting and pulling the pant leg.

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Offline T Beek

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2012, 09:25:17 AM »
Your response was unfortunately, very predictable.
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline Finski

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2012, 09:26:56 AM »
Your response was unfortunately, very predictable.

You surprices me every time. A man is stupid like a boot. Cannot learn nothing.
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Offline Cparagone

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2012, 11:39:30 AM »
Subject of this thread is confusing, maybe "we live in USA, so we don't need insulation..... right?"
 Finski is speaking of benefits of poly insulation which is better than wood, a thick tree is better that 3/4inch pine board but no match for poly in -40c temps.
So why all the attacks on finski?
If he has been keeping for so long and successfully, why bash his technique? Sure something may work better for you but it doesn't mean it best for everyone.

I bet the % of Italian bees that survive a tree cavity hive at Finski's latitude are 0%

Offline rdy-b

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2012, 12:46:58 PM »
**If we want the room dry, we warm up it a little bit and relative air moisture makes the room dry.**

 I am wondering about the relative air moisture making the room dry--how doses that work
 thanks inadvance-- :lol: RDY-B

Offline Finski

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2012, 02:11:03 PM »
**If we want the room dry, we warm up it a little bit and relative air moisture makes the room dry.**

 I am wondering about the relative air moisture making the room dry--how doses that work
 thanks inadvance-- :lol: RDY-B


Ok, you are fooling again.

http://www.ntcinsulation.com/_blog/The_Insulation_Lab/post/MOISTURE,_PSYCHROMETRICS_AND_RELATIVE_HUMIDITY_-_Their_Effect_on_Structure_and_Air_Quality/


Listen to this

Satisfaction - The Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain - from 1988?

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 02:48:48 PM by Finski »
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Offline Finski

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2012, 02:19:40 PM »

So why all the attacks on finski?


OK, I know those guys who try to be smart every time.  

Like this "I am wondering about the relative air moisture making the room dry"  

If a guy has a little bit brains, he knows how to look Wikipedia. But now he has an opportunity to be smart. Like we say here : Älä vielä laakase, naatitaa.

Physics is not best area of those guys. When they say that handfull dry sugar assimilates moisture from the hive, they do not know that winter store releases 10 litres water.
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Offline duck

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2012, 04:15:13 PM »
I would say past a certain threshold, the poly hives might have diminishing returns and wood is sufficient.  Of course I havent kept bees 50 years and have a brain like a caveman. Fire is one of the most amazing things Ive ever seen.

Offline rdy-b

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2012, 04:20:44 PM »
Are you trying to speak about HUMDITY is that what you mean by relitave moisture--do you mean relative humidity

 you say if we want room dry we add heat--but we already know hot air holds more moisture--RDY-B


Humidity is usually designated in percentage of relative humidity. The percentage is in relation to, or relative to, the total amount of moisture air can hold. 100% relative humidity, or 100% RH, means that the air is holding absolutely as much moisture as it can hold, it is completely saturated.Humidity is also relative to the temperature of the air.Hot air can hold a lot of moisture, where as cold air can hold very little. The measuring of these differences is called “psychrometrics”. I have included a simplified psychrometrics chart that shows the relationship of moisture content and temperature, and the resulting percentage of relative humidity. (This chart is simplified because other factors such as air pressure and elevation have a limited effect on the calculations).

Offline rdy-b

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2012, 04:54:00 PM »
The topic is ISULATION -poly hives -wood hives-you bang on about insulation factors
the fact of the mater is there is much more to it beside R VALUE insulation
 :) poly hives are designed to vent from the bottom and moisture is expelled by means of condensation
on the sides of the hive and it runs out the front

wood hive expels moisture out the top by means of top ventilation- :)

 the insulation factor is just tip of iceberg---whats relay going on........ ;)  RDY-B

Offline Finski

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2012, 05:24:09 PM »
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I knew that it was lack of jokes.

In my country air moisture and humidity is the same. We speak too about water content of air.

Mister Wise Guy, what do you say about that:






Resources, Tools and Basic Information for Engineering and Design of Technical Applications!


Custom Search
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Temperature and Moisture Holding Capacity of Air

The moisture holding capacity of air varies with temperature .
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Offline Finski

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2012, 05:34:31 PM »
I would say past a certain threshold, the poly hives might have diminishing returns and wood is sufficient.  Of course I havent kept bees 50 years and have a brain like a caveman. Fire is one of the most amazing things Ive ever seen.

Well, a duck thinks that he is a caveman? ..

Where you got that idea?....

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Offline rdy-b

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2012, 06:15:50 PM »
**Mister Wise Guy, what do you say about that:**

 it was your link-- :lol: you are tilting at windmills-- 8-) RDY-B

 DON QUIJOTE DE LA MANCHA (1979) - QUIXOTE

Offline minz

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2012, 06:21:29 PM »
To finski’s point and the psychrometrics, the warm air rises and hits the cool sides (see chart in the example) but now for argument sake lets say that it is cold outside and the air is cooled to 30 degrees in the hive, on the same graph.  What happens? The water condenses and runs out the front as mentioned (in Heating Ventilation and Air-conditioning (HVAC) we call this ‘ringing the water out of the air’. Now the cold air sinks and gets warmed again.  Now you are on a different curve (less moisture). Heat and moisture transfers from the brood area, cycle continues as long as the temperature is below dew point. 
My point is that a wood hive with a solid bottom would actually ring more water out of a hive than one with better insulation. 
Poor decisions make the best stories.

Offline rdy-b

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2012, 06:47:39 PM »
**My point is that a wood hive with a solid bottom would actually ring more water out of a hive than one with better insulation.**

 something important to remember is where the condensation takes place--we already know it will be
 the coldest point-which usually in none insulated wood hive is the top-then the dripping takes place
the insulated hive will condense on the sides and water runs down the sides and out the front without soaking the
bees --wood hive without insulation needs to expel moisture out of vent whole at top or sides as long as its above brood cluster
  the insulated hive has to be set up to take advantage of its capacity to function in this manner
we have already had the big debate over drilling vent wholes in poly hives --bad idea--RDY-B

Offline Finski

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2012, 12:55:04 AM »

My point is that a wood hive with a solid bottom would actually ring more water out of a hive than one with better insulation. 


The smaller the wintering room is, the warmer is the whole interrior.

- during mild weather respiration moisture meets dew pont outside the hive
- in colf weather like -10C part of moisture condensates inside corners of hive,
- in -20C hive forms ice and snow inside the hive. When the weather becomes mild, ice melts and run onto floor.

In wide hive

- condensation happens in the hive but it is not warm enough to dry up. Continuous moisture generates mould in peripheria when temp is above freezing point

"wood hive with a solid bottom would actually ring more water out "

- in wooden hive much of moisture goes into wooden box. In plastic hive all condensated moisture drills onto floor.
Ply wood may take in 30% moisture of its weight.
 When I open the hive for cleansing flight, many hives have 10 mm ice cover on floor and ice sticks hang under frames.
That is bees' life

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Offline derekm

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2012, 06:21:02 AM »
I would say past a certain threshold, the poly hives might have diminishing returns and wood is sufficient.  Of course I havent kept bees 50 years and have a brain like a caveman. Fire is one of the most amazing things Ive ever seen.

wood is sufficent if it is 6" thick and the 40L cavity is over 500mm tall. 
for conventional hives ... poly is outstanding  compared to wood. But it is still a long way off a tree nest.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2012, 06:23:01 AM »
The topic is ISULATION -poly hives -wood hives-you bang on about insulation factors
the fact of the mater is there is much more to it beside R VALUE insulation
 :) poly hives are designed to vent from the bottom and moisture is expelled by means of condensation
on the sides of the hive and it runs out the front

wood hive expels moisture out the top by means of top ventilation- :)

 the insulation factor is just tip of iceberg---whats relay going on........ ;)  RDY-B

I hope you are being ironic and just trying to wind up finski
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline oliver

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2012, 09:15:13 AM »
I have seen frost & ice collected on the inner cover, also ice balls of dead bees in the brood chamber with full frames of honey untouched, leads me to believe moisture from the hive does collect in the form of ice and frost, then on a warmer day rains inside the hive. I have gone to insulated brood chambers constructed like your house, with screened inner cover, insulated gable, vented outer cover. Have not seen any frost or ice build up with this, or any iceballed bees..dl

Offline Finski

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Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2012, 10:46:53 AM »
The topic is ISULATION -poly hives -wood hives-you bang on about insulation factors
the fact of the mater is there is much more to it beside R VALUE insulation
 :) poly hives are designed to vent from the bottom and moisture is expelled by means of condensation
on the sides of the hive and it runs out the front

wood hive expels moisture out the top by means of top ventilation- :)

 the insulation factor is just tip of iceberg---whats relay going on........ ;)  RDY-B

I hope you are being ironic and just trying to wind up finski


Jep. That Rud-y

A man from California speaks about

- insulation - he hardly knows what it means
- poly hive, hardly seen and surely not used
- top of iceberg -  hardly seen
- insulation factor --- what is that

- poly hives are designed to vent from the bottom. Yes, I burned that bottom 24 years ago. I did not know that. Actually mesh floor is for varroa controlling.

I have seen how top of iceberg goes under water. It happens when it rains snow so much that the weight push the top down.


Yep. It is nice to get advices from California how to over winter beehives.
Lets look Los Angeles forecast:


Humid: 53%

mon 22°

night 11°

Tues 27°

12°

Wens 24°

12°

That is a bad winter. We did not have that much heat even in last summer.

Like we say: Our summer is short but with thin cover snow
.
Thurs  24°

13°

Clayton Ca,,,,16°C



19°



20°



18°

« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 11:00:48 AM by Finski »
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