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Author Topic: We in USA .....need not insulation  (Read 6459 times)
Finski
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« on: October 27, 2012, 10:57:42 PM »

Me USA, me no varroa

But what is "local" weather now there

"we" in South Finland have same weather as in Anchorage Alaska. It is now here -6C
http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/anchorage/ext

Last night it was -20C in northern parts of our beekeeping area. It is cold spell now.


Nobody notice a tiny Canada....Winnibeg , about 0C to -9C

Michigan -1C to -6C

Salt Lake City  +3 to +15C

Oregon Ohio  +2 to +10C

Oregon Missouri  -1 to +13C

Los Angeles +15C to +29C


So, winter is very near

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« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:22:57 PM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2012, 11:21:59 PM »

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Siberian Capital Yakutsk  now 0C to -25C. In December to February  it is steady weather -40C

http://www.foreca.fi/Russia/Yakutsk
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T Beek
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2012, 08:48:02 AM »

Had 19F this AM.  The pond behind my home has begun to freeze over.  If current temps continue I should be ice-fishing by Turkey Day  Smiley

Finski; Many US beeks insulate their hives (Finland is hardly exclusive) and as a frequent poster you know that to be true.  Many have minimal issues w/ varroa as well, so far  Wink

Is everything really a competition w/ you.....no?  Yes?  Maybe? 

Not certain of the motive behind this misinformed proclamation above ("We in USA....need not insulation", duh?), unless you're 'trying' to provoke someone  shocked  What does it even mean?

My Finnish (born) neighbor tells me all the time, "the problem w/ Finns is they drink so much it causes them to pee too much."  grin  I think he means they can be pissy .
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Finski
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 10:29:41 AM »

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I say nothing about your face. You surely are as dark inside.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2012, 03:42:31 PM »

Most of the hobby bee keepers in my area do attempt to make some effort insulating their wooden hives.  However their attempt at adding insulation doesn’t often make physics sense; unfortunately.  Just sticking a slab of foam on top of a hive really isn’t insulating it.  IMO the best approach for insulating is similar to what Finski preaches; ditch the wood and use polystyrene hives to begin with.  At least for people living in the Northern states. 

There are plenty of forces going against insulated polystyrene hives here.  Wood is still cheaper, more physically robust, wax moth, ant, and rodent proof, wood is “traditional”, the commercial guys still use wood, and bee keepers can be a little stubborn at times.  I currently keep around 50 colonies, and all but a couple are in homemade polystyrene boxes.  However the commercial guys around me (400+ hives) use pure wood.  If you start with wood, then the costs of properly insulating in the winter really goes up.  This is surely a big reason why the commercial guys around me don’t insulate their wood hives…..it’s just too expensive and spring bees from Georgia are still relatively cheap.   
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Finski
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2012, 05:14:51 PM »

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I just tried top explain me-USA. 300 milj people and its me who represents the whole USA from Hawai to Alaska's tundra


However, when some one insulates hives, it is near madness.



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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2012, 06:43:24 PM »

Now I may be wrong,but I gathered from reading this that some people ignore the idea of insulating the hives in winter because of lack of cold.His point is America is a big country with area from Alaska,dang it's cold to Florida and Hawaii where they say winter is 70 degrees.
If you ignore the cold as you may ignore a heavy varroa load,your hives could very well be dead over winter.
 Oddly enough T-Beek he is backing what you say that advice in one part of America does not holds true for the whole nation.

And I see the other point that some hive insulation is over zealous. He uses poly hives with very good success. It's a wonder more are not sold in the US.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2012, 08:05:07 PM »

What does it even mean?

 lau

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minz
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2012, 10:11:09 PM »

I got a brother up in Alaska that tried bees a few years and gave it up.  Sounds like it may be possible if other herring chokers are doing it. Maybe I should not say herring choker  grin, it gets kicked around a lot by the Swedish in-laws but I don’t know if it is a term of endearment or not. 
Anyway what type of bugs you running up there in the tundra?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 12:04:42 AM »

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However, when some one insulates hives, it is near madness.


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Finski you shouldn’t be too surprised by what some beeks come up with.  The USA ranks near the bottom of the civilized world in math and science.  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/opinion/26tue2.html?_r=0

Black plastic wrap isn't an insulator and doesn’t do the bees any good at night when it really gets cold.  We Americans do a lot of crazy things. 
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 06:34:07 AM »


Anyway what type of bugs you running up there in the tundra?



I ment that USA and Canada have tundra. So we have too. Up on mountains there are tundra too.

Wer have many beekeepers on Polar Circle. They have Carniolans and Italians

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Finski
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 06:40:58 AM »

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My brother kept Italian bees in Öjeby Sweden 20 years. He got as good yields as I in south.
Reason was that there were no other hives on pastures . Yield was mostly 50 kg/hive.
It went very normally.
He had extra box for winter. He put the hive inside and insulations into the gap between box and the hive.

geographical coordinates: 65° 20' 43" North,




65 latitude in Alaska, Crooked Creek Cabins Bed and Breakfast
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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 06:51:55 AM »

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The northmost beekeepers, what I know lives in Ivalo 68.61 North latitude.
He wins often prices in honey taste contests.


Here is news...

http://www.kaleva.fi/uutiset/pohjois-suomi/suomen-parasta-hunajaa-ivalosta/62580/

Cloudberry honey got most votes

I do not know how he do that. Perhaps he keep hives in south during winter.
Summer weathers are relly miserable on those latitudes. Sun shine even at night.

Scenes http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=ivalo+maisemat&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1366&bih=673&wrapid=tlif135150799688110&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=wGCOUJTlB6aP4gTevoAQ

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Finski
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2012, 07:10:53 AM »

I got a brother up in Alaska that tried bees a few years and gave it up. 

I live at the latitude of Anchorage.

What we first need is a bee strain which react corectly on local climate.
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derekm
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2012, 09:11:48 AM »

..
And I see the other point that some hive insulation is over zealous. ..

"The majority of beekeepers do not give sufficient insulation and no beekeeper ever gave too much " Everertt Phillips Franklin

and even the bees in  finski's hives arent as warm as the  bees in a nice thick tree.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 09:33:31 AM »



"The majority of beekeepers do not give sufficient insulation and no beekeeper ever gave too much " Everertt Phillips Franklin

and even the bees in  finski's hives arent as warm as the  bees in a nice thick tree.

There are two rubbish thing in your writing

What means "majority of beekeepers". They are hobby beekeepers and beginners and they know much about beekeeping.
Because hives are adaptive, they can stand those idiotic beeholders.

Then that tree. We have not hollow thick trees. Varroa killed cavity hives in every country: USA, Britain, South Africa, NZ.

That "natural hollow tree" is Bull ship story. Hollow trees get a new swarm from nursed hives.

If we look the inslutaion values of the log, it is very poor. Franklin may say what ever. If he is from USA or from Biratin, he knows nothing about insulation.

Polyhive has 10 times better insulation value than a tree.

Guys spoil the polyhive when trey use open mesh floor. That is a big mystery.
When I use solid floor, my ventilation hole is 5% that of mesh floor. My hives get enough oxygen. What is the idea that size of ventilation hole as mesh floor.

My mother use to shout íf we children left the door open: "Doors shut! We have bought firewoods"
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derekm
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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2012, 10:12:45 AM »



"The majority of beekeepers do not give sufficient insulation and no beekeeper ever gave too much " Everertt Phillips Franklin

and even the bees in  finski's hives arent as warm as the  bees in a nice thick tree.

There are two rubbish thing in your writing

What means "majority of beekeepers". They are hobby beekeepers and beginners and they know much about beekeeping.
Because hives are adaptive, they can stand those idiotic beeholders.

Then that tree. We have not hollow thick trees. Varroa killed cavity hives in every country: USA, Britain, South Africa, NZ.

That "natural hollow tree" is Bull ship story. Hollow trees get a new swarm from nursed hives.

If we look the inslutaion values of the log, it is very poor. Franklin may say what ever. If he is from USA or from Biratin, he knows nothing about insulation.

Polyhive has 10 times better insulation value than a tree.

Guys spoil the polyhive when trey use open mesh floor. That is a big mystery.
When I use solid floor, my ventilation hole is 5% that of mesh floor. My hives get enough oxygen. What is the idea that size of ventilation hole as mesh floor.

My mother use to shout íf we children left the door open: "Doors shut! We have bought firewoods"
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lets deal in facts

Polystyrene is a better insulator than wood. But that says nothing about the insulation of the cavity inside a hive or a tree nest.

Have you actually measured the thermal conductance of your assembled polystyrene hive?

Have you measured the thermal conductance of a tree nest cavity?

btw The polystyrene hive I tested was made in Finland.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2012, 10:51:45 AM »


lets deal in facts

Polystyrene is a better insulator than wood. But that says nothing about the insulation of the cavity inside a hive or a tree nest.

Have you actually measured the thermal conductance of your assembled polystyrene hive?

Have you measured the thermal conductance of a tree nest cavity?

btw The polystyrene hive I tested was made in Finland.

First, I need not evidence because I have nursed bees over winter in poly 20 years.  If I know better, what I do them? Move my bees to tree cavity?

Fine bubble polystyrene has 10 times better insulation value than solid wood. Dry wood. In the hive wood has a good moisture percentage.
It is same with plye.

I have two kind of polyboxes. Nacca is the old whi´ch has thin central "mirror".
Then new honey boxes which have the whole surface thick wall
Then I have a inner zself made inner cover. Who knows what is the insulation value.

Then I have ventilation system  1 cm x 15 cm main enrtance and upper entrance diameter 1,5 cm.

Who knows what is summa summarum...


I have used too 3 cm thick solid wood boxes. That I know that they consume 50% more
winter food than polyhives.
I tried mesh floors and they consumed 100% more winter food.

What does it means?
- if in wooden hive food store is enough 6 months, in polyhive it s 9 months. Possibility to dead outs is smaller and I can find the food stores.

The biggest advantage is in spring. When in autumn the hive consume 1 kg food in month, in Spring it consumes
4 kg in month. And then ion May 4 kg in one week when the box is full of brood.

When I started to heat hives with electrict, I found how impotrtant is the heat. Even experienced beeks do not under stand that.


I think that I have done enough to reviele out what means the heat to the hives.
Even if I know that lodge house is better for bee (but it is not) I cannot help things.

My 3 cm thick wooden times weight 9 kg per box. When I move 2-box hives to outer pastures,
the weight of hive is 16 more than polyhive.
I remember how difficult was to lift those hives to carry. Now, polyhives are very easy. They are really good to my back.


And wooden box. The weight full of honey is 45 kg and in poly 35 kg.
At the age of 65 35 kg is too much to my back bone.

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derekm
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2012, 11:05:49 AM »

finski,

That a polystyrene is warmer a wooden hives - Fact
Tree nest warmer than polystyrene hive - fact
I dont need 25 years as bee keeper to measure facts.
How many beekeepers  use hives warmer than Finnish  polystyrene hives?  I know only two. They  are not in Finland or US.

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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2012, 11:22:59 AM »

finski,

That a polystyrene is warmer a wooden hives - Fact
Tree nest warmer than polystyrene hive - fact
I dont need 25 years as bee keeper to measure facts.
How many beekeepers  use hives warmer than Finnish  polystyrene hives?  I know only two. They  are not in Finland or US.



What is the value of your facts. Price of sugar is one euro per kilo. How much you trunk hive saves winter food. Or what is ide in your trunk hive?

It was not fault that I was born in 1947 and started beekeeping in 1962.

Yes I know that you neet not some many living years to keep bees. You clear it out in 3 years. Okay!

How many use warmer hives...They are millions, because in warm climates bees need not any insulation.  

When did you changed you medication?
I cannot undestand what are you insisting. That I should keep my colonies in some tree trunks?


Measure hives? Why? What do I do then?  Should I bye British National Hives?

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