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Author Topic: Do I really have to medicate?  (Read 2396 times)
MagicRay
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« on: October 10, 2005, 10:27:26 AM »

I am late with my fall management and have yet to start treating my hive for tracheal and varroa mites.  I started my hive in April and did not see any varroa until this past week (I found two mites in a quick glance at half of the sticky board, so this does not seem to be a lot).  Also, I have been using the crisco grease patties monthly.

Do I really need to put in things like Fumagilin and the menthol tablets this month?  What effect do these things have on the honey next year in the context of how they would effect me if I ate the honey?  I know some veteran beekeepers tolerate low levels of varroa to avoid the medication.  So I would like to get some additional opinions.

Thanks!

Raymond
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2005, 11:34:23 AM »

Quote from: MagicRay
I

Do I really need to put in things like Fumagilin


It is against nosema. It is not necessasy but helps those colonies which  otherwise would get nosema. Which get nosema, nobody knows.

If you use oxalix acid liguid, you have time to medicate.
http://beemaster.com/beebbs/viewtopic.php?t=3761

 
Quote
I know some veteran beekeepers tolerate low levels of varroa to avoid the medication.  So I would like to get some additional opinions.


I know a lot of old beekeepers who do noticed varroa and lost all their hobby.

When you have varroa, it is better to give medication. Oxalic adic is natural stuff. When you eat rhubarb you get that into your body.
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Joseph Clemens
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2005, 12:03:45 PM »

My bees have had Varroa for the entire 9 years I've been keeping them, here in Tucson, Arizona. They continue to thrive despite the fact that I have never used any treatments.
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Joseph Clemens
Beekeeping since 1964
10+ years in Tucson, Arizona
12+ hives and 15+ nucs
No chemicals -- no treatments of any kind, EVER.
Finsky
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2005, 02:55:17 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Clemens
My bees have had Varroa for the entire 9 years I've been keeping them, here in Tucson, Arizona. They continue to thrive despite the fact that I have never used any treatments.


Really bad advice for beginners.

You surely have read even from Canada that many professionals have lost 50% of their bees because varroa has become Apistan resistant.

Varroa have bolished away 90% of colonies from nature in many countries: Finland, USA, Southern Africa.

Beekeeping is not lazy man's job. Unnecessary to teach it.
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qa33010
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2005, 06:48:03 PM »

Unfortunately some folks take this hobby up with the understanding that they basically want something for nothing.  Granted the cash outlay is up there in the beginning, but that eases off as time goes by by spreading the cost out over time.  I have (unintenionally) talked a couple people out of it because when they find out about mites, desease, AHB, equipment upkeep and preparation, feeding, overwintering, inspections, liability and other areas associated with beekeeping they change their mind.  I have invited them to suit up and see a hive or look at a possible feral hive they usually decline politely, the others use expliatives (-1 sp) and decline.  But every one of them ask me why I can bee just as enthusiastic now as when I didn't have bees.  I tell them I'm even more excited since I got my girls.  They all shake their heads and tell me to let them know when I have honey so they can get a couple jars or more.

   Me?  As a very green beginner I have looked at all the information offerred here and other sites as well as literature and what experienced beeks here tell me and then decide which way I am going to go.  I get a lot of strange looks when I speak about oxylic acid or essential oils, water supply, robber screens and other things so I just keep my own counsel and decide what is best for the girls and what will help them stay healthy.  Granted I WANT honey and EXPECT honey for me and mine but I guess that means I need to stay observant and aware of everything involved.  Hopefully I'm not living in a fantasy world, but, that's what I feel like when I sit out there with a cup of coffee or juice (which I wind up sharing) and watch them.  Sorry I rambled again!!!

David
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Everyone said it couldn't be done. But he with a chuckle replied, "I won't be one to say it is so, until I give it a try."  So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin.  If he had a worry he hid it and he started to sing as he tackled that thing that couldn't be done, and he did it.  (unknown)
Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2005, 11:57:29 PM »

I started beekeeping at he age of 15. All went wrong when I did my hobby a couple of years. Then I met a guru of beekeeping. He lived 7 km from me. He have learned American professional way of beekeepeing.

After 43 years experience now I write about  my trick to others. Many say  that  I am stagnated in my base because I do not try every trick which world offers to me.   But learnings is not that you repeat all mistakes and variations what all others do.

Learning means that you gather a tool box to you and when you meet a problem, you pick upp the tool and twist with it.  A human is lazy and often he has his tool box but he does not twist with it. He says "I do not bother or I try to manage without. "

In beekeeping there is obliged twisting points in year's around. They are deaseases, swarming, enlarging, taking honey away, extracting, selling yield, proper ventilation for winter.

Obliged twisting poinst are not color of hive, bottom board structure, feeding box, color of bees, hive wall material, give you sugar or honey for winter and so on.

If you do not twist in obliged poit, your beekeeping will suffer badly.

One of the most important is shoosing pastures. It may mean  3 or even 5 fold yield, but who cares for that.  But for the structure of bottom board some are ready to fight to his last tooth in his mouth.

For the most beekeeping is that they have bees on their backyard. It is waste of time to give adwises for them. It is like a water on goose's back.
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Joseph Clemens
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2005, 03:11:18 AM »

Finsky,
I began learning about, and observing bees when I was 8 years old from several of our, then local, commercial beekeepers in Lompoc, California, who were kind enough and patient enough, to tutor me a little, and let me watch them work their bees. When I was 10 years old I obtained my own colony of honeybees and I've been keeping honeybees ever since. I've kept bees in many different climates, all over the United States of America.

Though I've listened carefully to the prevailing views concerning various treatments for diseases, pests, and parasites I've never tried them. My bees were always vigorous and appeared healthy --- I've never lost a single colony. The saying, "Why fix what isn't broken?" often comes to mind. Sometimes I began to accept the logic of those advocating treatments, but I figured that I'd want to harvest some honey one day and the thought of even a trace of any "treatments" being included, put me off of the treatment idea. I always told myself that I could try the "treatments" if it appeared that the bees needed them. They never have.

For those that use the various treatments, I wish them success. I have chosen to avoid treatments. If someday my methods fail me, I will miss having bees. But I don't think I will ever stop trying to keep bees. There are many different management techniques employed by different beekeepers in different climates and countries around the world. Perhaps if we could precisely immitate the management techniques of a successful beekeeper in our own local areas, we might experience similar success, but maybe not.

When I offer advice, it is from my own personal experience, not from any book. I must give the disclaimer that in my climate and circumstances, with my bees, these are simply the experiences and the observations that I have had, and my reasons for what I do.

I love watching the bees and what they do, inside the hive, and out. Harvesting anything from them is just, icing on the cake.
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Joseph Clemens
Beekeeping since 1964
10+ years in Tucson, Arizona
12+ hives and 15+ nucs
No chemicals -- no treatments of any kind, EVER.
Finsky
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2005, 04:09:33 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Clemens
There are many different management techniques employed by different beekeepers in different climates and countries around the world.


That is true and here is thje point

Quote
Perhaps if we could precisely immitate the management techniques of a successful beekeeper in our own local areas, we might experience similar success, but maybe not.


Surely not.

After 40 years experience I lost 3 winters ago 60% of my hives. My varroa community became Apistan/fluvinate resistant.  After that catastrofe I was obliged to take into use such  tricks that disaster is revieled to be the door to better succes.


Varroa itself was great succes because it killed wild bee population from our county. Bees  were German black  and really mean and swarming  like those Africanized.
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qa33010
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2005, 05:21:46 AM »

You both said it better than I tried to IMHO!  Thanks!

David
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Everyone said it couldn't be done. But he with a chuckle replied, "I won't be one to say it is so, until I give it a try."  So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin.  If he had a worry he hid it and he started to sing as he tackled that thing that couldn't be done, and he did it.  (unknown)
Michael Bush
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2005, 06:53:41 AM »

>I am late with my fall management and have yet to start treating my hive for tracheal and varroa mites.

Me too.  In fact I've never really treated for tracheal mites (used a grease patty once five years ago).

> I started my hive in April and did not see any varroa until this past week (I found two mites in a quick glance at half of the sticky board, so this does not seem to be a lot).

Two in twenty four hours is not a lot.

> Also, I have been using the crisco grease patties monthly.

Then why are you concerned about TMites?

>Do I really need to put in things like Fumagilin

I haven't used it ever (for the last 31 years)

> and the menthol tablets this month?

I haven't used it ever either.

>What effect do these things have on the honey next year in the context of how they would effect me if I ate the honey?

Don't know.  I've never used them.  I also haven't used Terramycin (Oxytetracycline) since 1976.

>I know some veteran beekeepers tolerate low levels of varroa to avoid the medication. So I would like to get some additional opinions.

If you have a 24 hour natural drop of 2 mites, I wouldn't medicate at all.  I never medicate for Tracheal mites.  Partly I'm breeding and if they are succeptable to tracheal mites I want to know.  But if you have good queens they shouldn't be suceptable.  Tracheal mite resistance isn't that hard to breed for.  As far as Varroa I'm on small cell, but even when I wasn't I would measure the level of mites before I got excited and treat and THEN if I were to treat I'd use the Oaxalic vapor before I'd use Apistan or Checkmite.
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Michael Bush
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Apis629
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2005, 04:52:07 PM »

If you're concerned about the levels of Varoa, think about it.  A natural drop of 2 which, I believe the statistic was anywhere from 10%-50% of the varoa mites will fall through the SBB.  Even at worse you only would have 20 varroa mites in the whole hive. Granted they can reproduce but, how much longer do you think it will be before it's winter and the bees stop rearing brood?  Depending on where you are(Where are you?) the brood cycles could be ending now or in the next month.  You should be alright.  However, if you're realy concerned you can use a sugar dust, surocid, or oxilic acid without contaminating the comb or the honey.
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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2005, 08:43:33 PM »

In our country autumn is exceptionally warm. Our researcher Seppo Korpela just just reported brood areas 7.-11.10. from 190 hives.  35% had brood.

 Especially those which had large brood area, carried pollen and those which had not, did not carried pollen into hive. Normally bees do not fly any more in October. Our tree leaves are just dropping in souther coastal part of Finland. In my summer cottage are trees are pale. it is 30 km from coast. Here is traffic camera view over the country http://www.tiehallinto.fi/alk/english/frames/kelikamerat-frame.html


In this picture right axis is capped brood area and horisontal axis is strenght of colony. Small colonies had more brood than big ones.

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