Why not try small cell?

[specialkayme]

Why not try small cell? Because I'm not convinced it makes a difference. Every study that I've read on the topic either states that the results are inconclusive, or that small cell has no effect on varroa reproductivity. One study I've read actually states the opposite.

The theories as to why small cell works are nice, but they are just that. Theories. Without proof that it works, I'm not interested in switching just yet. If evidence presents itself that it does work, I'll be interested in switching.

I went foundationless for approximately 5 years. In the end my hives crashed due to varroa (among other things) and I was left with 0 hives. My cell sizes varied, but were larger than they were "supposed" to be. I guess no one told my bees. If foundationless didn't work, I don't have much confidence small cell will work.

Every success story I've heard regarding small cell can not be duplicated. Those that it works for don't even know why, or how, it works. They just blindly go on believing it works when the studies say otherwise. That's fine for them, but don't impose it on me. Similar thought processes worked for the Greeks and their system of gods. Blind faith. I think I'll pass.

But why not use small cell? If you are going to be purchasing foundation, why not have it be small cell? Small cell foundation is harder to find, and usually more expensive. Usually the same with pre-built frames with plastic foundation. So there is a greater cost involved. But even if we can get it for the same price, if it isn't working, why do it? If we don't know if it works or not, why do it? I have one hive that has less mites on it because I let fruit rot on top of the cover. Why not throw rotting fruit on all my covers? Because I'm not convinced it matters.

[Michael Bush]

> 1) leads to smaller bees which are harder for mites to stay attached

I have never heard that one.

> 2) less room for mite to reproduce in cell. 

There have actually been some studies on that one.
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/apido:2001007&Itemid=129

>Any other beliefs on why small cell may help with mite problem?  (Or have I missed the point already?)

Pre and post capping times would seem the most logical (one day less of each) considering the life cycle of the Varroa.  Another would be the psuedo drone theory proposed by Dee Lusby, which is that on natural cell size the Varroa do not tend to reproduce in worker cells, preferring drones, but on large cell they mistake the large cell workers for drone cells.  There are also observations of more biting of mites and more chewing out of brood on small cell.

[specialkayme]

There are also observations of more biting of mites and more chewing out of brood on small cell.

I haven't heard of those observations.

According to Marla Spivak, chewing or biting of mites is a hereditary trait. Much like VSH. I don't think having bees on small cell could promote any type of genetic trait any faster than having bees on any other type of cell size. It would be the equivalent to say those bees on small cell are more "cordovan" than those that are not. The cell size doesn't determine the bees genetic makeup. I would think any observations showing a correlation between chewing and biting on the one hand and cell size on the other are just a coincidental observation.

But hey. I'd love to be wrong

Speaking of, why isn't anyone selecting for a gene that promotes grooming? Or chewing?

[Chrisd4421]

For me, I go foundationless to allow the bees to do what they do best.  They have been doing it for thousands and thousands of years without our intervention.  As with any life cycle, there will be good times, bad times and allowing nature to rule, the strong will survive.  I feel honored to be able to witness their ecosystem and in return, I try to intervene as little as possible.

Small, large, natural  cell size? I need to ask my bees.

Chris in nj

[Fox Creek]

    Thank you all who responded to my Question, "why not try small cell". Some large cell beekeepers have tried the small cell and had little or no improvement. There are studies showing small cell show no improvement. Then there are those who insist success with small cell. (I have seen the Nebraska inspection sheets showing 0 mite problems over a period of several years at M. Bush's website.) I do not think those who support small cell are being misleading in the least. It has worked for them! So far so good for me.
    If I was starting out new again, I would still go small cell as I see no downside. Starting large cell seems to be counter productive.

    p.s.  I agree, getting to the point where most of our frames are foundationless would be best.   
   

[kathyp]

if i may make a point about MB's mite counts...and not at all to put down anything he says or does...lord knows i have gone to his site for answers lots of times....but he, and some others, do many  things other than small cell .  breeding for mite and disease resistant bees is probably more the reason for success than the size of the cell used.

[Fox Creek]

Thank you Kathyp. I will keep this in mind and continue to learn from you and other experienced beekeepers! I have soooo much to learn!

[Michael Bush]

>but he, and some others, do many  things other than small cell .  breeding for mite and disease resistant bees is probably more the reason for success than the size of the cell used.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm

[T Beek]

For me, I go foundationless to allow the bees to do what they do best.  They have been doing it for thousands and thousands of years without our intervention.  As with any life cycle, there will be good times, bad times and allowing nature to rule, the strong will survive.  I feel honored to be able to witness their ecosystem and in return, I try to intervene as little as possible.

Small, large, natural  cell size? I need to ask my bees.

Chris in nj

Excellent!!

Just go foundationless and WATCH your bees decide