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Author Topic: Autumn Removal?  (Read 1619 times)
ShadowsInSnow
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« on: September 27, 2012, 07:58:23 AM »

Hi.  I received a call about an opportunity to remove a bee colony from an old farmhouse, prior to a remodelling project, which will take place very soon.  I live in Ohio.  If the bees are not removed, then they will be nuked with Raid.  Has anyone successfully done a removal, this late in the season?  Any and all advise would be appreciated.  Go for it or a waste of time?  Thanks, Jack.
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iddee
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2012, 08:15:08 AM »

For a hundred dollars per hour, go for it.

Otherwise, pass.
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2012, 08:51:24 AM »

For a hundred dollars per hour, go for it.

Otherwise, pass.

Agreed, to late for them to make it here without the most extreme luck and massive heroic measures to feed them all the way through. They could be a good boost to an existing colony in your yard if you have one in need of bees.
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Evan W
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2012, 12:46:00 PM »

If they removed the hive and managed to save as much comb as possible couldn't they save the hive? Even going as far as setting up the new hive next to the old location so that they could rob any honey that was  lost in the removal.
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hardwood
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2012, 01:14:15 PM »

If it means the difference of possible survival or certain doom I'd try to save them...what have they got to lose? If you can get them to wait until spring then wait, if not, go ahead and try!

Scott
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2012, 02:20:08 PM »

I just got off the phone with another removal call. Not sure if I want it or not being so late in the year. Trapout is the only option for me, but the biggest problem is that homeowner stated that the bees are already entering the inside of the house. Could be exciting when/if I put a trap in place Smiley
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duck
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2012, 03:47:28 PM »

I just got off the phone with another removal call. Not sure if I want it or not being so late in the year. Trapout is the only option for me, but the biggest problem is that homeowner stated that the bees are already entering the inside of the house. Could be exciting when/if I put a trap in place Smiley


put an existing weaker (needing bees) hive at the trapout location.  It will boost its population.  Otherwise you can combine with other hives.  Same for the removal.  Look at their queen when you take em out, maybe replace another one of yours that isnt that great with her. Or go through any hives and look for queenlessness etc...  Take any honey and lay it out in front of the hive that needs it etc..  many options to manage them.
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iddee
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2012, 03:59:49 PM »

Yep, work all winter and spend a hundred dollars on sugar, or rest all winter and spend 75 dollars in the spring for a package that has 10 times the chance of survival.Not a hard decision for me.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Intheswamp
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2012, 10:39:43 PM »

The feral survivor genes are what would drive me to try to save them.  Well, I guess that's why I've got a week-old cutout in my backyard now...talk about some hygienic, hard-working, calm bees!!  Smiley  It was a "they've gotta be out by this date" situation so we got them out.   Wink   Thankfully we don't normally have extreme nor extended cold down here so overwintering doesn't require nearly as much in resources as what more northerly hives require.

Best wishes, whichever decision you make,
Ed
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BlueBee
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2012, 11:09:53 PM »

Iddee and I are on the same wavelength again Wink  I completely agree with his analysis.  I wouldn’t mess with bees this late in the season unless I’ve already found a cure for cancer, the 100mpg carburetor, and figured out how to fly without wings.  Just this week two people around me wanted to cut out bees from a tree and barn….in Michigan!  It’s a complete waste of time this late and this far north. 
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2012, 11:50:48 PM »

BlueBee, how much sugar would it take to carry a full colony of these bees over till spring in the op's area?

What if the removal consisted of keeping only the queen along with enough bees and brood to form a nuc and spraying the rest of the bees?  Feeding a nuc would be much less expensive than feeding an entire colony.  If it survived there's a good chance of it coming out of the winter strong and ready to bust the doors wide open with those survivor genes.  It's a gamble, but so is buying a package in the spring.     

Ed
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"Always go to other people’s funerals, otherwise they wont come to yours." - Yogi Berra
Bees In Miami
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 03:25:38 AM »

I am a newbee, for sure, but one thing I know is that if a colony sets up in a spot, there WILL be a new colony back within a year without ridiculous sealing off of the area, and all areas around that.  I have that to thank for now having established colonies.  Can you access the hive if you cut into sheetrock/plaster?  Have you tried to listen with a stethascope to isolate the hive?  Wherever the hive has been built is all going to have to be replaced anyways (Or sealed super super good!!!), so you may as well try to save the colony.  If you can break/cut into the wall, save the main brood area (give the least brood comb area to the homeowner for some honey and comb, which scores points and help them feel better about the damage and cost!).  Keep the comb as intact as possible, zip tie or tie to an empty frame or 5, and put them in a box.  Sorry to all you that have been doing this a LOT longer than I, but I saved a couple colonies this way, and they are thriving.  Yes, there are definately casualties, but it keeps the colony going.   Don't know if I am speaking out of turn, but I find the feral hives (and offspring) the most docile!  You likely won't find the Queen...though if you set the box outside the area, she MAY join them, though doubtful.  If not, they will have a new Queen in a few weeks.  It may not be the way it is 'supposed' to work, but it has worked for me!  I wish you luck, and hope you can keep the colony alive.  Bee well!    Keep us posted please!  

Also, being in the Miami area, the wintering is not so much a factor for me, so pay attention to folks closer to your area for that....forgot to take that into account on my reply.  I take it waiting 'till your spring flow is out of the quesion?  Bummer! 
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 03:40:10 AM by Bees In Miami » Logged
ShadowsInSnow
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2012, 08:03:29 AM »

Thank you all for the advise and information.  Sounds like the chances of success are minimal.  It also sounds like the feral quality's and genes are very desirable. Beekeeping is a hobby for me, not something that I make a living off of so the cost of feeding vs purchase of a package have less weight for me.  I was considering the removal and transfer of the colony, to an indoor (basement), screened enclosure over the winter.  I could then moving them to an outdoor hive in the spring.  I know of a few observation hives, but these have exterior access.  I was thinking about a closed system.  What do you thing?  The bees would be oriented to the basement, not her surrounding area and when transferred outside it would be just like moving then a number of miles away- they would have to orient themselves to my beeyard.  Once again, thank you for all of the replies and the information.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 08:34:29 AM by ShadowsInSnow » Logged
Intheswamp
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2012, 08:56:48 AM »

Shadow, let us know what you decide.  If you remove them keep us posted on the happenings! Smiley

Best wishes,
Ed
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"Always go to other people’s funerals, otherwise they wont come to yours." - Yogi Berra
BlueBee
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 09:34:27 AM »

OK, maybe I came across too negative in my post.  Could the bees survive a cutout in Ohio?  I would say yes, but it’s just a lot of time and extra work.  Now if you’re doing this experiment to learn the limits of what bees can take, or just trying to learn more about bees; then I agree with Ed it would be interesting to try to save them if you have the time.   If you’ve got the time and they’re going to be nuked anyways, then why not try.  I have too many other irons in the fire to have time for such a thing myself, but if you have the time, then go for it.

It used to be common practice to winter bees in a celler in Ohio and points north.  CC Miller was a bee pioneer that did that in Ohio.  You can download his book for free from Google.  40 years among the bees, or 50 years among the bees. 

If you winter in the basement and don’t give them access to the outside, then you have to keep the basement completely dark and you have to keep it at a consistently cool temp.  I don’t recall the numbers, but I would read CC Millers book if you want to try that. 

Personally, I think the basement idea is a descent idea, but I would build them tunnels, or tubes to the outside.  That would allow the bees to defecate on warmer days (you get those in Ohio) and help prevent the nosema issues CC Miller battled.  Still I would probably try to keep the basement around 55F.  I seem to recall somebody doing such a thing here on Bee Master or Bee Source, you might want to do a search.  They had nucs in the basement with PVC tunnels going through a basement window.

There just isn’t much room for error when cutting out bees this late in the season.  If you kill the queen, you’re done.  Queens can get stuck in the gooey mess of a cutout.  The next issue is the bees are not going to build more comb this late in the season so if/when they try to move up in the winter and there is a chunk of missing comb, they will starve even if all the rest of the comb is filled with sugar water.  Now if you have them in a warmer location like the basement, they won’t be in as tight of a cluster and will probably be able to avoid gaps in your cutout comb. 
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