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Author Topic: "Different" result using foundationless frames  (Read 2158 times)
bwdenen
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« on: September 17, 2012, 06:19:20 PM »

This spring I decided to do a test project with some foundationless frames from Kelley.  I one hive, I started in the brood box with 2 foundationless frames between drawn comb.  Had some very good results so I went to a couple of the supers and did the same thing. Foundationless sandwiched between 2 frames with foundation.

Well, when I pulled the supers all the foundationless frames were empty, but the foundation frame on one side had the comb built out into the space of the empty frame.  Clear through to the foundation on the other side.  Result was a 2-1/2 inch thick comb. I had to pull both frames at the same time but the FL had no attachment points at all. 

Brood comb was built out in all of the FL frames in the lower 3 boxes, none of the honey comb was built out in the FL frames.  Pretty stange?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 08:46:03 PM »

I’ve had similar experiences with foundationless.  Seems to vary from hive to hive what they decide to do.   Like you, I’ve had more consistency in the brood nest than the supers.  I’ve got lots of foundationless frames, but I don't enjoy using them because they take more time and effort and you still get mixed results.
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David McLeod
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 11:26:31 PM »

Yep, bees will be bees. Same here better results in the brood but even them the upper corners often get pretty wide. Supers can be all over the place. I still use foundationless from time to time but I only drop them between two good pulled frames. I may try some thin follower boards to see if I can't get some straight comb drawn on foundationless.
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 08:52:34 AM »

Ditto above. When I do use them its either between two capped brood frames or between two capped honey frames. Interspersed with foundation has always turned into a mess for me.
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David McLeod
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 09:36:49 AM »

I'm probably going to try an experiment next season in the supers. Foundationless with thin follwer boards for cut comb production. I figure if I set it up similar to a section super and they will work it I can get good comb honey without buying thin surplus.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 09:28:21 AM »

An empty frame between two brood combs results in a new comb between the two.  An empty frame between two drawn but uncapped honey combs results in the empty frame remaining empty and the drawn combs being fat out to the center of the empty frame.  These results are very consistent.  Foundationless alternating with foundation usually results in the foundationless combs being drawn and the foundation being ignored and the foundationless combs are thick out to a beespace from the foundation on both sides.  Occasionally you get your result which is the foundation drawn out thick with the foundationless ignored.  Even if you alternate foundation with drawn empty comb in the supers they will fatten the drawn combs and ignore the foundation.  In the end the result is usually a box where you can't pull a single frame out.  Luckily you can flip it upside down and remove the box and then you can pull the frames apart.  I would never alternate drawn comb with foundation or foundationless, nor would I alternate foundationless with foundation in the supers.  However, this works fine in the brood nest.
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Michael Bush
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bwdenen
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 09:54:19 PM »

OK Michael.  What you say makes sense and I certantly have the proof.  I re-read the foundationless section of your book and see where I assumed you were including supers as well as brood boxes when you described how you would get foundationless frames drawn out.  Your references to "brood" were there but when you stated you extracted them, well I put 1 and 1 together and got 4.  New age math I guess.  Thanks for the reply. 
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wadehump
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 08:09:01 PM »

I run all foundationless. I turn the wedge on the side and nail it in. I caught 10 swarms this year and all were placed this way. The supers are a different animal you have to due checks on them every 2-3 days to make sure they are drawn right. As someone said above all hives are different some hives are not a problem some don't read the books.
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sterling
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 08:11:37 PM »

I have had my best luck by moving a couple drawn frames into the middle of a new super with the foundationless frames to the outside of the drawn frames. The bees will usually work from there out one frame at a time as they need one.
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