Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??  (Read 1818 times)

Offline annette

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5318
  • Gender: Female
Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« on: September 12, 2012, 08:46:52 PM »
I know the laying workers develop ovaries to lay eggs.

Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs as well?

Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6380
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 08:50:06 PM »
Yes. Some never mate. They are called drone layers. It happens often, especially with large queen producers.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline AllenF

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8192
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 09:24:24 PM »
Poorly mated will will become drone layers also in time. 

Offline BjornBee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3775
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 09:36:07 PM »
Poorly mated will will become drone layers also in time. 

Can you please tell me what a "poorly" mated queen is?

Thank you.
www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com

Offline Larry Bees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 711
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 09:46:01 PM »
I'm sticking my neck out here, but I assume that's a queen that only mated with a couple of drones rather than 12 or more drones.

Larry

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14150
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 09:56:26 PM »
It is a commonly held belief that an unmated queen will lay.  This is not consistent with my experience.  An unmated queen, in my experience, never lays.  A late mated queen becomes a drone layer.
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline BjornBee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3775
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 11:03:12 PM »
I'm sticking my neck out here, but I assume that's a queen that only mated with a couple of drones rather than 12 or more drones.

Larry

Larry, your neck is safe.  :-D

I ask because I constantly hear about "poorly" mated queens, and somehow this is equated to queens running out of sperm, or the idea that a queen mating with only one drone will be a dud.

Yet I have heard many others, like Al Tarpy, for those who know who he is, mention that a queen mating with one drone has enough sperm for her lifetime. That multiple matings has to do with genetic diversity, and not some idea that a queen goes to a drone layer, a spotty pattern, or some other problem.

Simply put, if she mates one time, she will lay for a couple years, can have a perfect pattern, yet not have the genetic diversity to ward off viral or other disease.

And many times in discussing a drone laying queen, it is mentioned that she may be "poorly" mated. I'm just asking how is a queen "poorly" mated if one drone will do the job, less the diversity issue.
www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com

Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6380
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 11:26:45 PM »
I know David Tarpy, but who is Al Tarpy?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline yelnifok

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 11:52:56 PM »
poorly mated- I believe IS the diversity issue and without the multiple matings there is no diversity. This may be mother natures way of ending a trait/strain of the honey bee.my $0.02

Offline Finski

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3928
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 02:23:05 AM »
It is a commonly held belief that an unmated queen will lay. 


it a fact, not a belief.

 If I brake supercede cells in late summer, bees make it during winter cluster. Bees cannot fly out during 6 months. When spring comes, there is often a new queen which lays drones.

First thing what I want to see after winter is that do I meet pieces of worker brood on the bottom of hiver or ppiece of drone brood. Drone brood is a bad sign.

But nowadays I have so much spare queen that it is no problem.
.
Language barrier NOT included

Offline BjornBee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3775
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 07:35:36 AM »
I know David Tarpy, but who is Al Tarpy?

In my mind.....the same person.  :-D
www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com

Offline BjornBee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3775
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 07:36:15 AM »
poorly mated- I believe IS the diversity issue and without the multiple matings there is no diversity. This may be mother natures way of ending a trait/strain of the honey bee.my $0.02

I agree.  ;)
www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14150
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2012, 06:49:13 PM »
>Bees cannot fly out during 6 months. When spring comes, there is often a new queen which lays drones.

Hence a late mated queen who always becomes a drone layer.  When I've had virgins with crumpled or damaged wings they NEVER laid.

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline deknow

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 764
  • Gender: Male
    • Golden Rule Honey, LLC
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2012, 09:40:00 PM »
I think one would have to have an excluder over the entrance (and remove all brood periodically....just because no one has documented queens mating in the hive doesn't mean it won't happen under any circumstances) in order to assure that the queen is still a virgin (perhaps there is a physical exam or dissection that can tell us this).

I've kept virgins in cages for 6 weeks...they ended up laying only drones when I put them in colonies...but I don't know if they took a mating flight or not...or if they mated in the hive or not.

I don't know of any documentation that shows that a virgin queen has laid eggs...viable or not.  With that said, given that workers can lay eggs under some circumstances, I would be surprised if queens could not.

deknow

Offline Finski

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3928
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2012, 01:38:03 AM »
I

I don't know of any documentation that shows that a virgin queen has laid eggs...vi

no need to docunmentate because no one has earlier asked that question.

At least to me the fact  works on me that virgin lays drones, if it has not mated . And reason is mostly weathers if it has not mated.

Like one professional said to me at the beginning of June:" none of our queens mated when we reared that dosage of queens".   and no idea to wait what happens after 2 months.

But I do have often virgin layers after winter and when I feeded, every hive had a laying queen. So simple.
.
Language barrier NOT included

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14150
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2012, 01:56:22 PM »
Huber spend years of research on the subject and concluded that an unmated queen never lays.  I have yet to see a queen with crumpled or damaged wings ever lay.
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen


Offline Finski

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3928
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2012, 04:47:00 PM »
Huber spend years of research on the subject and concluded that an unmated queen never lays.  I have yet to see a queen with crumpled or damaged wings ever lay.


my unmated queens lay in spring.
That is why they are easy to find.


.
Language barrier NOT included

Offline Finski

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3928
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2012, 04:56:15 PM »
   8-)  http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-261718.html?s=28b2f97bbb567411ca6c3906a9a89b71

in that link John Clemens made an experiment with 2 virgins. Boath 2 started to lay drone eggs.

.
Language barrier NOT included

Offline deknow

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 764
  • Gender: Male
    • Golden Rule Honey, LLC
Re: Can a virgin queen lay unfertilized eggs??
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2012, 10:17:59 AM »
...it does not appear that he excluded all drones from where the queens were.  Personally, I would not assume that an old queen absolutely would not mate in the hive.

Deknow

 

anything